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Author Topic:   Foreveryoung Discussions
dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
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(6)
Message 46 of 103 (677563)
10-30-2012 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by foreveryoung
10-30-2012 2:43 PM


Then why assume that you are the only one to have thought critically about the age of the earth and of geological formations? When you were taught that 2+2 is 4, was that truly indoctrination or was rather informing you of a fact? Informing students of what has been discovered and of some of the evidence that led to that discovery is not indoctrination. Demanding that they believe in something is an indication of indoctrination. As I've pointed out before, the explicitly stated goal of public education and of science education is for the students to understand the ideas and the materials, but not that they be compelled to believe in those ideas (eg, my example of USAF NCOs being taught Communism obviously not in order to turn us into Communists). In contrast, ICR "public school edition" "balanced treatment" teaching materials urge the students to choose between believing and an "unnamed" Creator or "atheistic" evolution, which is blatantly indoctrination.
When we accept what a scientific source tells us, it is out of trust that that source had done due dilligence. The same as when you do any kind of research or follow any kind of instruction manual for learning how to do something. That is not automatically indoctrination, though I have encountered some that are indoctrinational (all of which were conservative/evangelical/fundamentalist Christian).
We all accept information without complete knowledge, but then we can think about it and evaluate it and make corrections when we find problems with it. That also includes when we had originally misunderstood something. Indoctrination does not allow for that, but learning does. For example, having read about radiometric dating, I accepted it. But then one day while driving up to the mountains, going past exposed sedimentary layers, I got to thinking and realized that since that material was recycled older rock, how could radiometric dating be applied to it? So I researched further and learned about tie points, igneous formations that can be radiodated and which can bracket sedimentary strata which can then be dated as falling between the ages of the bracketing igneous formations. Now, if I had been indoctrinated, I would never have been able to have questioned what I had been taught, at least not without going through some kind of painful "deconversion" experience, something that you may be familiar with.
Do not call unclean that which is clean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by foreveryoung, posted 10-30-2012 2:43 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 47 of 103 (677564)
10-30-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by JonF
10-30-2012 3:41 PM


Read the rest of the story. You're replying to steps of the thought processes he went through to get to his conclusion, rather than replying to his conclusion and his reasons for arriving there. Read the rest of the story.

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dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 58 of 103 (677608)
10-30-2012 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by foreveryoung
10-30-2012 2:38 PM


Before I start, the tone of this message was most refreshingly different from most of your others. I do hope that this trend will continue.
What finally pushed me over the edge happened on another theology website that I have frequented over the years. Someone finally took the time to explain to me what it meant for an ancient writing to be in mythological form. I always fought against this notion because the atheists always said genesis was mythological, but they meant it as in a complete fabrication or fairy tale. When it was explained to me that mythological writing can be about completely real historical phenomena, but written in such a way as to be understandable to mythologically thinking cultures, I was finally convinced. Genesis was telling me a true story. It was just written in a way that was not meant for people of my era who have a culture immersed in thought that has been with us since the age of enlightenment. Genesis is not going to give us a history of the earth or the universe that is scientific terms of the twenty first century. I did not have to abandon belief in the bible being completely true and accurate to also believe the earth was 4.56 billion years old. There was nothing else left now to stop me from believing it.
Suddenly, the novice was enlightened. (from The Zen of Programming)
First, words, like functions in C++, are overloaded. Although all instances of the same word appear the same, they can have different meanings in different contexts (eg, think of the various meanings of the word, "round"). IOW, what a word means depends on how it's being used. This leads to a common rhetorical trick that I've seen called "semantic shifting", a kind of a "bait and switch", in which you start off using one meaning of a word and then suddenly shift to a different meaning; it comes into place in "creation science" quote-mining when they quote a scientific source using the scientific meaning of a word and then substitute the street meaning (eg, "transitional", "vestigial", "theory").
Just as "theory" has a street meaning akin to "wild-ass guess" (WAG) despite its stringent scientific meaning, "myth" has a street meaning of "fairy tale" or "complete fabrication", as you describe. And yet a myth is much more than that, in that a myth embodies profound truths that transcend mere facts -- any myth that does not is a poor excuse that doesn't deserve the name.
Second, already mentioned immediately above, a myth embodies profound truths that transcend mere facts. An analogy would be the role of aggadah as my rabbinical literature prof, Rabbi Kalir, had taught us. Rabbinic teaching methods traditionally followed two basic approaches: khalakah(spelling?), which is teaching through scholarly examination and exposition, and aggadah, which is teaching through a story. Rabbi Kalir likened how aggadah works to how a joke works: you have a punch line and you have the story leading up to the punch line -- or, if you'd prefer, the moral of the story, which is still the punch line. For any one punch line, you can have an almost unlimited number of stories leading up to it. The details of the stories are unimportant except for how they support the punch line. If you pay more attention to the details of the myriad stories and get too caught up in them, then you could miss the punch line completely.
Myth is a form of aggadah, great truths being taught through stories. The details of the stories or even whether the events of the stories actually happened or not are of no importance compared to the great truths being presented. And if you get all tangled up in the details, you will miss what the myth is teaching.
The really big and fundamental problem that I see with literalist creationists is in how they are missing the meaning and truth and beauty of their Creation Myth as they squabble over the unimportant details of the story, declaring their faith to depend completely on those unimportant details instead of upon the Myth itself. And I trust that you correctly understand what meaning of "myth" it is that I'm using here.
When it was explained to me that mythological writing can be about completely real historical phenomena, but written in such a way as to be understandable to mythologically thinking cultures, I was finally convinced. Genesis was telling me a true story. It was just written in a way that was not meant for people of my era who have a culture immersed in thought that has been with us since the age of enlightenment.
Third, this is what I've been telling you, but you were always too angry, too full of hate and rage, and too prejudiced to even begin to listen to a "non-True-Christian" (a very common trait of fundamentalists that I've noticed far too often). The truth is the truth and does not depend on who's telling it.
Using the analogy of "spiritual meat" vs "spiritual milk", I wrote of "scientific meat" vs "scientific milk", saying that you wouldn't try to feed "scientific meat" to a pre-science society, but rather "scientific milk" in the form of a mythology that tries to convey essentially what happened or why it happened while leaving out all the gory details that not only wouldn't make any sense to them, but could also mislead them. I'm pretty sure I've given the example of a degenerative brain disease, kuru, found among cannibals, since it's spread by eating infected brain tissue. The natives believed it was caused by a demon, so doctors, in order to prove to them what was actually causing it so that they could prevent its spread, showed the natives the virus in infected tissue under the microscope. The natives went away even more convinced it was caused by a demon, because now they've actually seen that demon with their own eyes.
Hopefully you'll now be better able to listen to what's being said here and to think about it. Or at least to discuss it.
PS
I gave you a "cheer". The absolute first time I've ever used that feature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by foreveryoung, posted 10-30-2012 2:38 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(7)
Message 75 of 103 (677751)
11-01-2012 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by foreveryoung
11-01-2012 3:18 AM


Have you REALLY tried to find them in sources outside of this forum?
Are you kidding us? Do you really believe that we keep ourselves as isolated and ignorant as creationists do?
I first encountered "creation science" in 1970 with two claims: living molluscs radiodated to be thousands of years old and a NASA computer discovered Joshua's Lost Day. The first claim was bogus (reservoir effect -- the fresh-water clams' stream was filled with dissolved limestone, AKA "old carbon") while the second one was blatantly bogus because even when almost nobody had access to them I knew that computers are not magic (even many Christian sites also refute that claim now). During that time, I also spent a lot of time with fundamentalist friends and families of friends during which time I learned a lot about their theology.
In 1981, an ICR creationist came to speak near where I was stationed and I figured that, since they were still around, there must actually be something to it. So I started studying "creation science" to learn just what they evidence was. I quickly learned that that evidence simply does not exist. Watching a fundamentalist Christian TV show on Pat Robertson's CBN which featured a debate between a leading creationist and an "evolutionist" was an eye-opener when the creationist adamantly blinded himself to the evidence (for details, read about that debate in my Why I Oppose Creation Science (or, How I got to Here from There) where three pelvises -- ape, human, and hominid -- were compared). Half a decade later, a creationist co-worker and I attended a major debate (ICR's Gish & H. Morris vs SDSU's Thwaites and Awbrey -- Gish and Morris literally wrote the "creation science" book); as we were leaving, my friend (for whom I had written the first iteration of that essay above) was in shock and kept muttering "We have mountains of evidence that would have blown those evolutionists away. Why didn't they present any of it?" The reason: they have no evidence; they just lie to their followers that they have evidence.
Since then, I have continued to study, to collect creationist claims and to verify them, and to discuss "creation science" with creationists. That included an extended email correspondence with a local creationist activist. What kept happening over and over and over again was that no creationist would even begin to attempt to support any of their own claims and would even vehemently oppose all my attempts to get them to even discuss those claims. Invariably, they would try to change the subject.
So, does three decades count as trying to find any cogent creationist arguments? Com'on, try to get real here!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by foreveryoung, posted 11-01-2012 3:18 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
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