Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   faith based science?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 171 (676272)
10-21-2012 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dogmafood
10-21-2012 9:55 AM


Re: Just to reiterate
Faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof
I would modify this a bit. Plenty of people accept scientific results when they are utterly unaware of the evidence supporting the results. I don't see how such acceptance is any different from faith. In some cases the question is whether faith is misplaced.
It is also the case that there are other ways to reach a result that is unsupported by the evidence than accepting things on faith. For example, relying on faulty evidence, misinterpreting results, and using bad logic can all lead to a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Yet those things cannot be considered 'faith'.
For the rational mind, if there is a gap in knowledge then it remains a gap until it can be filled in by facts that can be shown to be true.
I like your Higgs example and with the lesson it teaches about how science should be done.
In at least some sense, most things scientific are never proven. We use abductive reasoning to support general relativity, the theory of evolution, and the standard model.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dogmafood, posted 10-21-2012 9:55 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 171 (677220)
10-28-2012 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by subbie
10-27-2012 9:26 PM


What causes the light's path to curve, if not curvature in space?
It is space-time that is curved by matter, energy, momentum, and pressure/stress.
Edited by NoNukes, : omitted part of tensr

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by subbie, posted 10-27-2012 9:26 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-28-2012 11:06 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 88 of 171 (677238)
10-28-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by subbie
10-28-2012 11:20 AM


Re: Curvy motions
I looked at a bit of the video. Bill claims that the particle theory of light did not explain any physical phenomena. How about black body radiation and the photoelectric effect (the explanation of the latter winning Einstein the Nobel Prize)
Next he makes a grammar based attack on Einstein's theory.
In other words, don't bother unless you want some insight into the types of arguments appeal to poster Maddenstein.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by subbie, posted 10-28-2012 11:20 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 171 (677285)
10-29-2012 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:15 AM


But is physics studying merely a mathematical abstraction or something they can prove interacts with the world of matter and energy?
How would you characterize concepts such as velocity, momentum, or acceleration? Those things are neither matter or energy. They are not objects. Are they real or just mathematical abstractions?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:15 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:39 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 103 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-29-2012 1:21 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 171 (677291)
10-29-2012 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:39 AM


Acceleration and velocity are manifestations of energy.
Manifestation of energy. I don't think so, but then I don't know what a manifestation is. Certainly we can have energy without having acceleration or velocity.
Velocity is displacement over time. Acceleration is the derivative of velocity. These are quantities with purely mathematical definitions.
Momentum is a manifestation of mass or vice versa really.
Well no.
Momentum is a quantity of motion. But what's that? Momentum is a mathematical quantity that turns out to be conserved when there is no outside forces acting on a system. Objects with no mass at all have momentum which I guess means that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. I guess because I don't know what manifestation means in this context.
Similarly the topology of space-time determines the trajectory of ordinary everyday objects. In what sense is space-time curvature not affected by or not affecting matter and energy? Are trajectories real or mere mathematics?
What is "space time" a manifestation of ?
Perhaps I can answer that after you tell me what a manifestation is.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:39 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:28 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 171 (677294)
10-29-2012 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:28 AM


But neither one exists without energy. It is energy that produces displacement over time and acceleration.
Similarly, energy and matter produce space-time curvature. Yet you seem to be arguing that space-time curvature is not a manifestation of energy and matter. You are silent about whether trajectories through space-time are real.
I still don't understand why velocity is a manifestation of energy. Energy can cause objects to move. Is that all that is required to be a manifestation? Just some link between the two concepts?
And what about momentum and mass. Why don't massless particles with momentum mean that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. We can have mass without momentum and momentum without mass.
In short, I don't understand why your "manifestation" test is meaningful.
Momentum is a meaningless concept without there being mass involved. It is the momentum of a particle that gives it it's mass. If a particle with no mass has a measure of momentum then you have either incorrectly defined momentum or mass or both.
Absolutely wrong. Photons are massless and yet have energy and momentum. The sum of momentum along with that of the other involved particles is conserved in indisputably physical interactions such as pair production (generation of electron-positron pair from electromagnetic radiation), Compton scattering, and the production of Bremsstrahlung radiation.
Edited by NoNukes, : Address momentum idea.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:28 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 171 (677296)
10-29-2012 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:37 AM


That is unfounded speculation. On the other hand, it is proven that energy produces velocity and acceleration.
If matter and energy did produce space-time curvature, would that mean that curvature is a manifestation? I'm just trying to nail down what a manifestation is.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:37 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 171 (677298)
10-29-2012 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:28 AM


To make something manifest is to make it detectable in a physical way.
I am familiar with this definition of manifestation. But this cannot possibly be what you mean when you say that momentum is a manifestation of matter.
I'm not sure where this is going. There is plenty entity of evidence that Einstein's formulation of the general relativity is correct. No I am not able to directly observed curved space-time, but I am able to observe the effects of such curving. General relativity isn't idle speculation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:28 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 126 of 171 (677601)
10-30-2012 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by foreveryoung
10-30-2012 2:58 PM


E&M 101
Please demonstrate how a wave can propagate without a medium.
Most types of waves cannot propagate without a medium because their oscillations require a medium to support them. Of course variations in electric field strength and magnetic field strength don't require a medium which opens the possibility that a wave made of electric and magnetic fields will behave differently than does a sound wave. It's no surprise that pressure waves require a medium to pressurize or that water waves require water.
Here is a sketch of how an electromagnetic wave can propagate without a medium. Electromagnetic radiation is different from the other types of waves mentioned above in that two different types of vibration are involved. It turns out that a time varying magnetic field produces a time varying electric field and that a time varying electric field generates a time varying magnetic field.
We also know that no medium is required to support either a magnetic field or an electric field.
So getting an electro-magnetic wave started simply requires generating one or the other time varying field. One simple way to to this is to simply jiggle an electrical charge up and down. The jiggled charge generates an electric field even in free space, which in turn generates the magnetic field displaced in space from the electric field. (All as required by Maxwell's equations) No medium is required to support either field in empty space.
Another way of viewing things is that a sound wave propagates a displacement of the medium from one point to another, and accordingly must use a medium. For E&M radiation, what is propagates is the amplitude of the E&M field rather than any physical displacement of any medium. No medium is required for either a static or a time varying magnetic or electric field to exist in space. Based on this difference, there is no reason why light should require a medium simply because we choose to call the oscillating fields a wave.
Here is the explanation as found in wikipedia
Electromagnetic radiation - Wikipedia
quote:
Electromagnetic radiation is a particular form of the more general electromagnetic field (EM field), which is produced by moving charges. Electromagnetic radiation is associated with EM fields that are far enough away from the moving charges that produced them, that absorption of the EM radiation no longer affects the behavior of these moving charges. These two types or behaviors of EM field are sometimes referred to as the near and far field. In this language, EMR is merely another name for the far-field. Charges and currents directly produce the near-field. However, charges and currents produce EMR only indirectlyrather, in EMR, both the magnetic and electric fields are produced by changes in the other type of field, not directly by charges and currents. This close relationship causes the electric and magnetic fields in EMR to stand in a fixed ratio of strengths to each other, and to be found in phase, with maxima and nodes in each found at the same places in space.
Added by Edit:
We also have experimental evidence (for example the Michelson-Morley experiment) which pretty much demolishes the 'ether' theory. Which brings me to a final point. When science is taught in a university, it is not the case that facts are presented to be accepted without question. What is also presented are alternate attempted explanations along with the reasons why those previous attempts were abandoned. We know that attempts to explain the photo electric effect, and the observed spectrum of black body radiation without quantization were utter failures.
Edited by NoNukes, : Reword.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by foreveryoung, posted 10-30-2012 2:58 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 8:56 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 149 by foreveryoung, posted 11-01-2012 3:15 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 139 of 171 (677672)
10-31-2012 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Taq
10-31-2012 12:54 PM


Re: light waves
No, it was based on the BELIEF that waves required a medium. Obviously, the evidence shows that they don't.
I don't agree with this characterization. People thought light required a medium because light had wave properties, and all of the waves they were familiar with required a medium. Like other waves, light has a frequency, a wave length, propagation speed, reflects, refracts, etc.
I think the erroneous conclusion that light needs some kind of medium is a failed extrapolation from what was known to be true about other waves. I'm not sure I'd call that faith. It was just wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Taq, posted 10-31-2012 12:54 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-31-2012 10:47 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 171 (677723)
11-01-2012 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by foreveryoung
11-01-2012 3:15 AM


Re: E&M 101
A magnetic field and electric field exert force on particles.
I'd express this a little differently. A field is the force that would be fellt on a particle at points in space. When we describe a field, we have said nothing about how the force itself is generated or propagated.
I take your post to be the equivalent of saying that you do not agree that fields (electric, magnetic, or gravity) can actually be formed in empty space. What medium do you believe is used to establish a gravity field?
ABE:
What would the properties of such a medium be?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by foreveryoung, posted 11-01-2012 3:15 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by foreveryoung, posted 11-01-2012 9:56 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 156 of 171 (677745)
11-01-2012 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by foreveryoung
11-01-2012 9:56 AM


Re: E&M 101
I have read some things by people you would consider quacks about the exact nature of the vacuum of space itself.
And how did you reach the conclusion that those "things by people [I] would consider quacks" were correct? Contrary to your belief that I am merely "indoctrinated", I reached my conclusions regarding the explanation because the non-quack explanations result in predictions that work.
This is actually the part of the discussion that is on topic. Faith based science.
The difference between me and you is that I view the vacuum of space as having physical properties
Again, what are those physical properties and how do they allow the transmission of light/gravity in a way consistent with observation? One such observation is that the speed of light is the same as measured in any inertial reference frame.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by foreveryoung, posted 11-01-2012 9:56 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 163 of 171 (677807)
11-01-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by foreveryoung
11-01-2012 12:25 PM


Re: E&M 101
Taq's question is the same as the question I ask you in message 156. Feel free to respond only to Taq. Your predicted observation fails to explain a number of observed phenomena.
It also raises the question of what quality of space is involved in supporting gravitational fields. How does a light ray bend in a gravitational field if the quality of space does not change in a gravitational field.
Further, there is the problem that the velocity of light is often not constant when viewed from an accelerating reference frame. How does this vacuum property of space accommodate all of these issues? Surely you have thought of all of these things.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by foreveryoung, posted 11-01-2012 12:25 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 171 (677874)
11-02-2012 9:29 AM


Bill Gaede, scum..
Edited by AdminModulous, : text hidden, see Message 121

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024