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Author Topic:   faith based science?
Taq
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Message 18 of 171 (676439)
10-22-2012 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by eclectic1993
10-21-2012 5:04 PM


My evolutionist friend at work has an interesting way of dealing with life spawning from inorganic matter. He explains that it is outside the purview of evolutionary science. He stated that was a matter for a chemist to work out. He is able to embrace evolutionary theory and "ignore origins of life", and is quite happy. He takes this gap in 'faith'. We laugh together that we're both a couple of 'believers'.
Evolution explains how life changes. That is, it describes how life diversified once it was here. As far as the theory of evolution is concerned, the first life could have been put here by God. It doesn't change the theory one bit. It's not that your friend accepts abiogenesis on faith. Rather, it is irrelevant to the question of evolution.
First and foremost, when a creationist speaks about the problem of evolution, it begins with origins. This is why, technically, creationists and evolutionist cannot really debate, because they are not debating the same thing.
Then the problem lies with the creationist since evolution does not deal with the origin of life. I think it is only fair that creationists talk about evolution when they want to debate evolution and talk about abiogenesis when they want to debate abiogenesis.
Second to 'origins of life' is another gap I've seen taken on faith.
That is the decoding/reprogramming of DNA to produce more complex forms/combinations of DNA.
Scientists don't have to take that on faith since they observe it in the data they produce in the lab. We can see the direct results of mutation and selection in such simple experiments as the Luria-Delbruck fluctuation experiment or the Lederberg plate replica experiment. We can also see what mutations and selection are capable of doing by comparing the genomes of related organisms. Want to know how humans evolved? Compare the human genome to that of chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans (and even neanderthals). The differences seen between the genomes contain the mutations that led to us. Our genomes are a direct record of our evolutionary history which makes genetics one of the most exciting fields in biology.
My friend from work explains this 'gap' by saying that millions of years have elapsed, and that anything could happen in that amount of time. I'll be honest, I'm convinced that given trillions of years that life would not 'find a way'.
One of the first things you learn in science is that reality is not forced to behave in a way that you want it to. Whether you are convinced or not, that is how evolution works. That is how reality operates. You can be convinced that the Sun moves about the Earth, but the Sun and Earth will not obey your beliefs.
Your friend is right. Time results in divergence. There is no way around it. Mutations accumulate over time. The more time there is the more mutations build up in the genome and within the population.
Do we understand every single evolutionary pathway that has been taken throughout history? Of course not. However, all of the evidence we have gained so far points to evolution as being the major player in producing biodiversity. When scientists want to better understand how life changed in the past they use the theory of evolution to figure it out, and most importantly, it works. The theory of evolution is ultimately a tool used by biologists to study life, and they use this tool because it really works.
Have you actually considered what we (evolutionists and creationists) share in common in terms of science and beliefs?
Most of the time, we share very little. What creationists call science and what evolutionists call science are often very different. For example, you confuse evolution and abiogenesis. Scientists don't do that. Creationists do. We just view science from very different places. It seems to me that creationists see science as a competing theology while scientists view science as a tool for figuring out how reality works. That is why you insist that there is religious faith as part of science. You project your own religious beliefs onto science and assume we believe things based on faith. At least that has been my observation in discussions like these.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 26 of 171 (676563)
10-23-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by eclectic1993
10-22-2012 8:17 PM


I will go out on a limb and state that there are more ways to 'break' a species than to maintain it.
That would seem to be a statement based on faith. The evidence shows us quite a different result. You and me were both born with about 50 to 100 mutations. How many genetic diseases do you suffer from? I don't suffer from any, and I doubt that you do either. If we multiple this over just the last 10 generations it results in each of us carrying between 500 and 1,000 mutations. Again, I don't have a genetic diseases that I am aware of. It would seem to me that the vast majority of mutations do not result in lethal diseases contrary to your faith based claims.
Mathematically, given enough time, its possible that all species will eventually die out due to enough mutations OR given enough time it is possible that species can change into higher forms. I believe the former to be true, based upon what we know.
"Based up on what we know"? What would that be? What we know is that the vast number of mutations are neutral, and that detrimental mutations are selected against so that they do not build up within a population.
However, if the evidence can point two ways, each of which have merit, then ITS reasonable in my way of thinking to be 'open minded'.
The problem is that creationists confuse evidence with faith based beliefs. One is not the other.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 113 of 171 (677406)
10-29-2012 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:15 AM


But is physics studying merely a mathematical abstraction or something they can prove interacts with the world of matter and energy?
I don't know why you felt the need to put "merely" in there, but that is the jist of it. Physicists construct abstract mathematical models and then test reality to see how close those constructs come to the real thing. It is what physicists have been doing since empiricism became a part of science.
How do you think physics should work? Should physicists make pronouncements from a pulipit and require everyone to believe what the say without any evidence to back it up? This isn't creationism you know.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 114 of 171 (677409)
10-29-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-29-2012 4:47 AM


Massless momentum of a photon is one of the delicious heights of the human absurdity.
So I suppose Compton Scattering doesn't exist?
Compton scattering - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 117 of 171 (677516)
10-30-2012 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-30-2012 3:01 AM


Irrelevant. Photon is a mathematical object. It is a quantity of motion translated called energy in the jargon. That in turn could be reduced to potential distance travelled by an object. A length. That itself may not travel or be scattered which is a kind of travelling. Impossible.
The fact of the matter is that the mathematical model for photons does include momentum. This is based on evidence, not faith.
Wave requires a medium necessarily. Waving nothing, or waving vacuum, space-time or whatever the euphemism might be is not allowed by Mother Nature.
Then please cite the experiments which demonstrate that this medium exists. Otherwise, your claims are simply based on faith.

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 Message 115 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 3:01 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 122 of 171 (677569)
10-30-2012 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-30-2012 2:30 PM


deleted per admin suggestions above.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 124 of 171 (677597)
10-30-2012 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by New Cat's Eye
10-30-2012 5:03 PM


Re: light waves
Some people seem to think that we might be taking the consideration of light as both a wave and a particle on faith. I actually sat through a physics lecture in college where the professor demonstrated the two-slit experiment with both water* and light. It was really awesome to see and very convincing. Since I was convinced, I would say that I'm not taking it on faith.
Quite right. We do not say that light acts like a wave because of faith, but because of observations.
Even more, scientists have done experiments meant to detect the luminiferous ether, the supposed medium needed for light to propogate. Scientists were actually completely surprised that they got a negative result:
Michelson—Morley experiment - Wikipedia
The lack of an ether is not a product of faith. Quite the opposite. The original belief in the ether was based on faith. The experimental results, the actual facts of the universe, demonstrate that there is no ether.
If those who attack science actually understood the history of scientific discoveries they may not be making these claims about science being based on faith.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 136 of 171 (677658)
10-31-2012 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-30-2012 10:41 PM


Re: light waves
No, the original belief in ether was based on strict necessity . . .
No, it was based on the BELIEF that waves required a medium. Obviously, the evidence shows that they don't. Evidence trumps beliefs. That is the whole point of this thread.
If your only point is that there has to be an ether BECAUSE YOU SAY SO then perhaps you should take a moment and reflect on that. If there is an ether, why doesn't it show up in experiments?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 141 of 171 (677686)
10-31-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-31-2012 1:31 PM


Re: light waves
No, all your evidence only shows there is a contradiction in terms.
No, there isn't. Light is observed to act as a wave. Every experiment fails to detect an ether. Both are based on FACTS. Your beliefs do not trump these facts.
I repeat slowly for the exceptionally dull and unreceptive: wave is what something does. An act needs an actor.
In this case, the photon is the actor.
You can believe whatever you want and persist in your absurdities.
I accept the observations made in these experiments. What I don't accept are your empty assertions that are based on faith.

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 Message 137 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-31-2012 1:31 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 157 of 171 (677758)
11-01-2012 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-31-2012 10:06 PM


Re: light waves
Every experiment indicates waves thereby indicating there is a medium that allows the waving.
That is a faith based statement.
The actual experiments demonstrate that there is no medium:
Michelson—Morley experiment - Wikipedia
If you think I am wrong, then cite a single experiment that has detected this ether.
It's waves again that propagate. That needs a medium necessarily.
Where did you show that? All we have is your empty assertions.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 158 of 171 (677761)
11-01-2012 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by foreveryoung
11-01-2012 9:56 AM


Re: E&M 101
The difference between me and you is that I view the vacuum of space as having physical properties and is as much a medium as a wall of concrete, albeit much thinner.
Since the Earth is moving through space in addition to its rotation as well as the movement of our solar system around the galactic core we should observe differences in the speed of light depending on the travel of the photon with respect to the ether. We don't observe this. That is what the Michelson-Morley experiment sought to measure, and it failed spectacularly. This website has a very nice applet that lets you run the experiment yourself:
http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/...mexpt6.htm
No experiment has ever measured an ether. That's because it isn't there. The medium isn't there.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by foreveryoung, posted 11-01-2012 9:56 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 161 of 171 (677793)
11-01-2012 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by foreveryoung
11-01-2012 12:25 PM


Re: E&M 101
We don't observe any changes in the speed of light as long as it is going through the vacuum of space no matter where that might happen to be. The quality of the vacuum of space is everywhere constant even in the presence of massive bodies.
We are MOVING through space, are we not? We are moving through the medium. If the speed of light is constant in the medium this would indicate that we should observe a slower speed of light in the direction of our movement and a faster speed of light behind us. Is this the case? No. Therefore, there is no medium.

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 171 of 171 (677879)
11-02-2012 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-02-2012 1:45 AM


Re: E&M 101
Edited by AdminModulous, : text hidden, see Message 121

This message is a reply to:
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