Flaws in the Scriptures

Don't forget the two MOSQUITOS who multiplied out of control and gave Noah a reason to invent the idea of hell!

apostolosI most certainly can. The moon does not produce its own light it merely reflects the sunlight.We must also realize that in order for the light of the sun to increase sevenfold other properties of the sun must also.If you would like an understanding of this check out this humorous website that uses this verse to prove that heaven is hotter than hell.http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm Here we have the obviously impossible example of the sun moving back along its apparent path in the sky in order to move the shadow on the sun dial of Ahaz back ten degrees.The obvious lack of any record of this event anywhere else in the world is one thing but the disruption that would be required in the laws of physics is staggering.We will begin with these.------------------
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."

I'm curious as to what value there is in insisting that supernatural events are impossible because they are supernatural ...

ConsequentAtheistThe value is in determining just where we draw the line in any of these debates.After all we debate with people about the fossil record and if they simply fall back to the excuse of supernatural intervention then we are done because if we concede supernatural then there is no point in any arguement anywhere on this forum.This particular arguement also crosses the line since a change in the movement of the sun would be recorded by all people on earth since,,you have to admit,it would be difficult not to notice.That said this also brings into the arena the changes to the laws of physics that would be necessary. Only a misunderstanding of the 'true' motion of the sun and earth could allow this sentence to be placed in the bible.We nowadays know how it is the rotation of the earth on its axis that allows the movement of the shadow on a sundial.In order for the sundial to move back ten degrees then earth would have to stop in its rotation and then move backwards west to east.Every item on the planet due to inertia would thereby continue in its movement at a speed dependant upon the speed of rotation of the earth at that latitude.This is over 1000 m.p.h. at the equator.Let us say the speed in the middle east is 500 m.p.h. The earth stops.You and everything continue in the direction of rotation[east]at that speed until such time as you encounter an object that has not moved as fast and you strike it at that speed.And then the earth moves backward in a time frame that is not specified but the stresses on the planet would not be survivable.And then the process is reversed in order to set things right again. Now the funny thing is that the return to normal is not recorded in the bible. So what do we make of this? For one the Lord God is not aware that he did not move the sun back ten degrees so there is error there which speaks against the inerrency of the bible.And what are we to make of the fact that,since the bible did not say so,[It is inerrant after all] we have a planet that now spins in a different direction from before this action.And nobody on the planet noticed that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west opposite of what it was before?[This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-19-2003][This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-20-2003]

Re-read Apostle's original post. The premises aren't about what a random group of people would consistently report, they're about what the inerrant word of God would report. The fact that the Gospels are attributed to different writers is irrelevant if you assume, as a premise, that all the Gospels are the inerrant word of God.You have an interesting discussion in mind, but it isn't the discussion Apostle started.

I could play devil's advocate here, but I won't. Note, however:

quote:

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In contrasting the Western religions with science, the most important vriterion of distinction is that the supernatural or spiritual realm is unknowable ... Given this fiat by the theistic believers, science simply ignores the supernatural as being outside the scope of scientific inquiry. Scientists in effect are saying:

• You religious believers set up your postulates as truths, and we take you at your word. By definition, you render your beliefs unassailable and unavailable.

This attitude is not one of surrender, but simply an expression of the logical impossibility of proving the existence of something about which nothing can possibly be known through scientific investigation.

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- Understanding Science: An Introduction to Concepts and Issues by Arthur N. Strahler

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By the way, wasn't it wonderful of the Gods to create such a robust fossil record? It gives us a powerful message about what might have been, while ...

PaulK,I see that, for once, we agree with each other. You stated, This is correct. The Bible is only reliable if its supposed errors can be reasonably explained. Any explanations which defy reason are not in keeping with the claims of the Bible regarding itself and thus prove to be errors themselves. In light of this allow me to refer you to several explanations which I have already provided for some of the supposed contradictions mentioned in this thread.First, Zhimbo mentioned the followed supposition: I provided an answer to a similar question here.Second, Yaro posted a question regarding civilizations that predate the flood. This question was brought up in this thread. If you will read through it you will find that no valid evidence could be provided for any civilization continuing through the flood.Third, Reason posted several questions regarding supposed numerical discrepancies. Answers to all three of these can be found in the recently published book Those So Called Errors, but I have presented the results of an independent study of Jehoiachin's age here.And finally I have also provided an answer to Sidelined's statement about the sundial of Ahaz. He stated: My initial statement in a lengthy discussion of this topic can be found here, and the conclusion of this discussion can be found here.These are just a few of the reasonable explanations that have already been proposed on this site.

I might point out that the link you posted in no way refutes my contradiction. Even if you would be able to rationalize the civilization aspect, you are blanketly ignoring the part concerning animals.How did the Madagascar toe toed sloth crawl from Madagascar across the Sahara, and into the middle east?How did the Cain toad get there from Australia? The Kangaroo? And after they were let off the ark, how did they crawl back?With regard to Civilizations, the Egyptian Civilization predates Noah's flood. How did it continue after it? This is not answered by the link provided.If you somehow place the Egyptians after, how can you explain the overwhelming evidence, of ancient peoples living in the americas. Evidence of peoples living here goes back to at least 10,000 years, recent discoveries suggest ages as old as 33,000 years ago:http://www.washington.edu/...emuseum/kman/ancientpeoples.htmAfter the flood, how did people get back here and start the Aztec and Mayan Empire, make up brand new theologies, and cultures, and develop an entirely diffrent race from the rest of the world?Speaking of race, how did the chinese become chinese so fast after the flood? How did the African turn black again?So many quetions you attempted to wipe away. I really would like apostolos to answer them tho, not you Mr. Fortenberry.[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-20-2003]

w_fortenberry
And finally I have also provided an answer to Sidelined's statement about the sundial of Ahaz. He stated:We nowadays know how it is the rotation of the earth on its axis that allows the movement of the shadow on a sundial.My initial statement in a lengthy discussion of this topic can be found here, and the conclusion of this discussion can be found here.Sorry to burst your bubble old chap but despite the fact that you are arguing at these two sites for the geocentricity of earth, it makes no difference to the arguement that I have made.You are wrong on the geocentricity but again it does not affect the physical effects that would occur of the earth reversing its spin.------------------
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."

Hello w_fortenberry,

quote:

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry

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And finally I have also provided an answer to Sidelined's statement about the sundial of Ahaz.

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I have read through the previous posts that you linked to, however, could you please clarify:1) Are you saying that the regression of the shadow on the sundial was a vision?OR:2) Are you saying that our solar system is geocentric?Namaste'Amlodhi

Sidelined,I hope the issues Yaro raised in post #38 will be a sufficient starting point.Yaro,
I can tell that my knowledge of scientific matters is not at the level of w_fortenberry, so if you are looking for some scientific expostulation from a perspective different from his, I am sad to say I will most likely disappoint you. I will, however, take some time and examine the questions you brought up from the position of my understanding, which is very much centered on the text of the Bible. I will respond a.s.a.p, but that will not be until I have done some adequte research and review.Russ

Thats perfectly fine apostolos I hope we are both able to learn from each other. These to me have allways been rather burning issues. Even without sience, the story seems to defy common sense.I don't claim to be a great scientist either. Just a av avarage joe who likes to look at things realisticaly as all.

apostolosI will see if I can bring this into an example that you may be familiar with. I am sure you have seen those advertisments on tv where crash test dummies in a car are slammed into a barrier at high speed.Multiply that by about 20 and that would be about the effect of stopping the world. Then increase it even more by reversing the earth's spin and it would be as though the barrier was accelerated to the same speed as the vehicle before impact.Now remove the air bags and seatbelts from the scene.

To deal with the explanations you offer.Your Passover answer presumes that they celebrated the Passover on different days. This seems rather unlikely.With regard to the Flood there is certainly evidence of civilisations carrying on through the dates assigned to the flood (e.g. the Jomon Culture of Japan). Tell me where you put the Flood and we can see whether any civilisations survived thorugh it or not.On Jehoiachins age, both sources give the duration of his reign as ~3 months. It should be ten years longer in Chronicles if your explanation was correct. Your explanation is not reasonable.And neither of the posts linked as explanations of the sundial dealt with the issue at all.SO I don't see one answer I consider reaosnable in your list.

Fortenberry you said:Answers to all three of these can be found in the recently published book Those So Called Errors, but I have presented the results of an independent study of Jehoiachin's age here.So your study showed that Jehoiachin began his reign when he was 18, therefore 2 CHR 36:9 is an error, for it says nothing of any co-regancy. And it doesn't matter what the book says. The fact is that the Bible plainly contradicts itself, period. No way around it, one of the two passages on either subject must be in error. More likely both verses are errors.