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Author Topic:   Creationism Road Trip
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 16 of 409 (678537)
11-08-2012 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by DevilsAdvocate
11-08-2012 9:33 PM


Re: march in step ye good scientists
Yea, except they still tried their hardest to couch it as a show about the validity of evolution, instead of one about religious extremism. This is what your side often does, it says it wants to discuss the validity of evolution, but in reality most of the objections to the objections of evolution are about a fear or loathing of religion.
You say you want a science debate, when in fact what you really want is an anti-religion debate.
So we agree on one thing, it was a reality show, not a science show.
One thing we don't agree on is that this site attempts to answer the hard questions. On the contrary, it does its mightiest to slither away from them. Where's the devil in your advocacy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-08-2012 9:33 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-08-2012 10:02 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 409 (678538)
11-08-2012 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by foreveryoung
11-08-2012 9:39 PM


Re: One Day
Fox News. That is because most people recognize soviet style propaganda even if it is cloaked in soft, classical music and milquetoast tones of voice.
You say they recognize soviet style propaganda yet they watch Fox News?
They also have no where else to turn if they don't want to hear progressive, collectivist, anti-traditional american values propaganda.
Yes, they certainly want to avoid progress, I believe you are right there.
But what anti-traditional American Values are you referencing?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by foreveryoung, posted 11-08-2012 9:39 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by foreveryoung, posted 11-08-2012 10:41 PM jar has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 18 of 409 (678540)
11-08-2012 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Bolder-dash
11-08-2012 9:43 PM


Re: march in step ye good scientists
You say you want a science debate, when in fact what you really want is an anti-religion debate.
Not anti-religion. Anti-religious extremism and the adoption of beliefs which hold have no grasp on reality i.e. dinosaurs and humans cohabiting.
I am actually a church going person, though a rather liberal one at that. I am not anti-religious in the slightest. In fact the majority of scientists, even evolutionary biologists are religious. Your point is null and void.
So we agree on one thing, it was a reality show, not a science show.
Agreed. The point I have been making all along. No one here is stupid enough to think this was a true science debate. The point of the show is to try to get people to think about their beliefs and if they were as grounded in reality and logic as they thought they were.
One thing we don't agree on is that this site attempts to answer the hard questions. On the contrary, it does its mightiest to slither away from them. Where's the devil in your advocacy?
Really? I see most of the slithering coming from the Creationists on the site who twist and squirm or just abandon ship when faced with arguments they can't answer. As for the 'devils advocacy' that is for you to find out. I am more complex in my philosophy and world view than many take me for.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-08-2012 9:43 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 19 of 409 (678542)
11-08-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by foreveryoung
11-08-2012 9:39 PM


Re: One Day
They also have no where else to turn if they don't want to hear progressive, collectivist, anti-traditional american values propaganda.
Um, ok. If promoting equality and liberty for all people is anti-traditional, so be it. Can you put money where your mouth is and tell me what progressive, collectivist, anti-traditionalism means?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by foreveryoung, posted 11-08-2012 9:39 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Theodoric, posted 11-08-2012 10:29 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 22 by foreveryoung, posted 11-08-2012 10:52 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 20 of 409 (678544)
11-08-2012 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by DevilsAdvocate
11-08-2012 10:20 PM


Re: One Day
Can you put money where your mouth is and tell me what progressive, collectivist, anti-traditionalism means?
Good luck.
I am still waiting for explanations on some other parroting he did on another thread. Forever seems to make a habit of saying things that he doesn't understand. Well at least he seems to be incapable of explaining them.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-08-2012 10:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(1)
Message 21 of 409 (678545)
11-08-2012 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
11-08-2012 9:55 PM


Re: One Day
jar writes:
You say they recognize soviet style propaganda yet they watch Fox News?
Yes, because it is the only place where they can find an absence of it.
jar writes:
Yes, they certainly want to avoid progress, I believe you are right there.
Not progress; progressive, as in what started back around 1890.
jar writes:
But what anti-traditional American Values are you referencing?
Everything my parents grew up relying on has been mocked daily by the other media outlets. Everyone but FOX is trying to convince their audience that america needs to emulate europe and particularly european socialism. That is exactly the opposite of what america used to be all about. They are also trying to persuade their audience that not permitting the moral filth that is common to europe and San Francisco makes them evil people. This is the kind of values that are anything but traditional american. [/qs]
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 11-08-2012 9:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 11-08-2012 11:02 PM foreveryoung has not replied
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(1)
Message 22 of 409 (678546)
11-08-2012 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by DevilsAdvocate
11-08-2012 10:20 PM


Re: One Day
Um, ok. If promoting equality and liberty for all people is anti-traditional, so be it. Can you put money where your mouth is and tell me what progressive, collectivist, anti-traditionalism means?
Egalitarianism is not equality. Moral anarchy is not Liberty. Collectivist means the state ultimately has the right to your property and what you can do with your life. An example of collectivism is the idea that communally owned farms are better than privately owned farms for the production of the nations food supply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-08-2012 10:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-08-2012 11:53 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 23 of 409 (678548)
11-08-2012 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Coyote
11-08-2012 9:42 PM


Re: scientifically educated intelligent design proponents???
Coyote, I am well aware that you abide by the cultist belief that anything that calls itself a science journal is akin to being reality. So saying that something is reviewed by ones peers is no more meaningful than saying that evolutionists believe in evolution.
The question is no really whether or not you are a member of the moose lodge, the better question is really why you are so afraid to be viewed more critically. Why do you censor Wikipedia, why do you out professors who don't tow your line, why do you refuse to allow schools to discuss the missing evidence in your theory, why does Percy systematically think of ways to convince fence sitters, why are Eugenie Scott and Richard Dawkins, and PZ Meyers so afraid of debate, why does your side seem so afraid, that they spend so much time creating so obviously uncritical fluff pieces like this BBC fakeumentary? If one is a world's leading professor of astronomy, one can't have believes in intelligent design and still keep their university job?
These are the people doing the peer reviews? Whoop dee doo! Join the club, lodge brother. Don't forget your secret handshake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Coyote, posted 11-08-2012 9:42 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 24 of 409 (678549)
11-08-2012 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by foreveryoung
11-08-2012 10:41 PM


Re: One Day
foreveryoung writes:
jar writes:
You say they recognize soviet style propaganda yet they watch Fox News?
Yes, because it is the only place where they can find an absence of it.
I'm sorry but what soviet style propaganda is found on anything other than Fox News?
foreveryoung writes:
jar writes:
Yes, they certainly want to avoid progress, I believe you are right there.
Not progress; progressive, as in what started back around 1890.
So you want to return to before 1890. Yup, I can believe that.
foreveryoung writes:
jar writes:
But what anti-traditional American Values are you referencing?
Everything my parents grew up relying on has been mocked daily by the other media outlets. Everyone but FOX is trying to convince their audience that america needs to emulate europe and particularly european socialism. That is exactly the opposite of what america used to be all about. They are also trying to persuade their audience that not permitting the moral filth that is common to europe and San Francisco makes them evil people. This is the kind of values that are anything but traditional american.
I have no idea what your parents grew up believing so you will have to provide some other evidence.
What is wrong with socialism, after all Jesus would have been a communist, even beyond socialist. How is that different than what the US has always been about?
What moral filth are you talking about that makes folk evil? Again, you need to provide some evidence instead of just making unsupported assertions.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by foreveryoung, posted 11-08-2012 10:41 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 11-09-2012 8:30 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(4)
Message 25 of 409 (678550)
11-08-2012 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by foreveryoung
11-08-2012 10:52 PM


Re: One Day
Yea, except they still tried their hardest to couch it as a show about the validity of evolution, instead of one about religious extremism. This is what your side often does, it says it wants to discuss the validity of evolution, but in reality most of the objections to the objections of evolution are about a fear or loathing of religion.
Biological evolution is just one piece of the puzzle. The TV producer brought in evidence for biological evolution, old-earth geology, etc. I agree that this show was a poor pittance for showing the breadth of evidence for evolution. No, one hour show in any earthly way could show the mounds of evidence in support for evolution and an old earth/universe. It is impossible. Unfortunately the hours and hours of taping of scientists giving evidence was cut into small second and minute video bytes and spliced into a reality TV show. Clearly not the vehicle you are seeking if you want real hard-core evidence for or against a point of view. But again, that was not the purpose of this show.
foreveryoung writes:
Egalitarianism is not equality.
What is wrong with Egalitarianism?
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy writes:
Egalitarianism is a trend of thought in political philosophy. An egalitarian favors equality of some sort: People should get the same, or be treated the same, or be treated as equals, in some respect. Egalitarian doctrines tend to express the idea that all human persons are equal in fundamental worth or moral status. So far as the Western European and Anglo-American philosophical tradition is concerned, one significant source of this thought is the Christian notion that God loves all human souls equally. Egalitarianism is a protean doctrine, because there are several different types of equality, or ways in which people might be treated the same, that might be thought desirable. In modern democratic societies, the term "egalitarian" is often used to refer to a position that favors, for any of a wide array of reasons, a greater degree of equality of income and wealth across persons than currently exists.
also
Merriam-Webster Dictionary writes:
a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people
epic fail. Egalitaarianism is very much the promotion of eqaulity. And I am all for it.
foreveryoung writes:
Moral anarchy is not Liberty
There is no morality without liberty. Morality without liberty is blind obedience and slavery. Or to put it more succintly:
Thomas Jefferson writes:
"Liberty... is the great parent of science and of virtue; and a nation will be great in both always in proportion as it is free." --Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Willard, 1789.
and
Thomas Jefferson writes:
Peace, prosperity, liberty and morals have an intimate connection." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1813
foreveryoung writes:
Collectivist means the state ultimately has the right to your property and what you can do with your life.
And who is advocating collectivism aka communism in the American government? Can you give me specific examples? Or are you going to just spew inane talking points. Last time I checked the government did not pay for my electricity, water or mortgage (well technically they do since I am in the military, but you get my point).
In fact it is the conservatives not the progressives who want to tell a woman what to do with her body, a gay man or women who they can marry, immigrants that they can't become citizens, etc, etc, etc.
An example of collectivism is the idea that communally owned farms are better than privately owned farms for the production of the nations food supply.
Farming is farming. Communal farms are extremely small in number compared to big cooperate and privately owned famrs. Furthermore, most of them are very inclusive and many do not export their crops outside their community.
Have you ever heard of a Kibbutzim? That is an Israeli communal farm, they were very successful at one time until gradually replaced by commercial farming. There are still many left, however, they are totally voluntary as opposed to those in communist states. However, communal farms in the US are rather small and of course totally voluntary. Communal farms are very good for local business but are not able to keep up with the agricultural demands of 311+ million Americans.
I live in the rural suburbia of eastern Virginia and there are several communal farms in our area. There is nothing "communist" about them. In fact, a few of these people who conduct these farms in the area I live in are staunch conservative Republicans.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by foreveryoung, posted 11-08-2012 10:52 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-09-2012 12:03 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 26 of 409 (678552)
11-09-2012 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by DevilsAdvocate
11-08-2012 11:53 PM


Re: One Day
forever young,
Some examples of voluntary communal farming in Virginia, USA:
Intentional Communities - Find, Join, & Learn about Intentional Community
Twin Oaks Intentional Community - Twin Oaks Intentional Community Home
http://www.localharvest.org/...-force-collective-farm-M42632
Frog Bottom Farm | community supported agriculture in the heart of Virginia
Some are liberal leaning, some are conservative. All voluntary. Even so there are very, very few compared with the vast numbers of private and commercial farms. Your fear-mongering is in vain.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-08-2012 11:53 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by foreveryoung, posted 11-09-2012 1:10 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 27 of 409 (678558)
11-09-2012 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by DevilsAdvocate
11-09-2012 12:03 AM


Re: One Day
The key word is VOLUNTARY. I was talking about forced communal farming. What fearmongering are you talking about. I was only speaking to reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-09-2012 12:03 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Theodoric, posted 11-09-2012 1:25 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 29 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-09-2012 5:30 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 11-09-2012 8:33 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 35 by jar, posted 11-09-2012 9:09 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 28 of 409 (678561)
11-09-2012 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by foreveryoung
11-09-2012 1:10 AM


Re: One Day
I was talking about forced communal farming. What fearmongering are you talking about. I was only speaking to reality.
So who is advocating collectivization?
You really need to stay away from Glenn Beck.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by foreveryoung, posted 11-09-2012 1:10 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by kofh2u, posted 11-09-2012 8:39 AM Theodoric has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(4)
Message 29 of 409 (678571)
11-09-2012 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by foreveryoung
11-09-2012 1:10 AM


Re: One Day
The key word is VOLUNTARY. I was talking about forced communal farming. What fearmongering are you talking about. I was only speaking to reality
What reality? No one in America is pushing for non-voluntary communal farming much less voluntary communal farming. Communal farming has been shown to work only on the small scale. It breaks down on the large scale i.e. the Soviet Union.
Believe me, I listen to NPR and watch PBS all the time, I have never ever seen them advocate communal farming, voluntary or non-voluntary.
Your attempt to imply that progressives are pushing for forced communal farming is unjustified and unsubstantiated. Hence, you are fear mongering.
Merrium-Webster writes:
to raise or excite alarms especially needlessly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by foreveryoung, posted 11-09-2012 1:10 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 30 of 409 (678583)
11-09-2012 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by foreveryoung
11-08-2012 10:41 PM


Re: One Day
foreveryoung writes:
jar writes:
You say they recognize soviet style propaganda yet they watch Fox News?
Yes, because it is the only place where they can find an absence of it.
For an example of Fox News engaging in propaganda you have to go all the way back to, let's see now, let me think, it was all so long ago - oh yes, now I remember, this past Tuesday and the presidential election. Fox News cooked their stats and claimed they showed that Romney was going to win when the actual for-real data showed that Obama was going to win. Fox News even lies about math. There are a lot of Republican donors mad as hell at being duped into making large donations based upon false estimations of the chances of victory.
You're like Phil. You don't care about reality. You know what you believe, and evidence be damned you just stick with it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by foreveryoung, posted 11-08-2012 10:41 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
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