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Author | Topic: The one and only non-creationist in this forum. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 4283 days) Posts: 565 Joined:
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Inadequate, you can easily verify the physics of what the cat says here. Get a balloon and marker pen or something.
In another analogy used by the quacks to sell the mathemagic to the masses of gullible apes, the snake oil peddling clowns are talking about points on the surface of a balloon representing the galaxies in the putative expansion of the universe. They claim that the points on the surface remain stationary while the distance between them all is increasing. Not so in the physical reality of real balloons painted with real dots. Unless the dots are assumed to be abstract 0D points, that is. If not it is easy to see that the paint is stretching in proportion to the dots' physical size relative to the rest of the dot-free surface of the balloon. Try it, Inadequate, if you don't believe the cat and you will see the quackademic sham easily exposed by a simple experiment.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I suppose you think that meant something.
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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I think that you are demanding too much from the analogies. They are an approximation. I suspect that the contradictions disappear when you replace the analogy with actual knowledge.
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
One day someone may figure out how to translate your strange yet wonderful language into English. I hope that it will turn out to be an epic poem demonstrating the transcendent power of love, and I fear that it may just be instructions for operating a washing-machine. That is hilarious. A little harsh but hilarious.
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Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 4283 days) Posts: 565 Joined: |
No, crypto-creo Dogma. The actual knowledge may only expose the inherent contradictions further. Hit the actual sources of confusion. Read first what Minkowski intended by time-axis in Raum und Zeit and then compare that to the naive interpretation by Friedmann in his book with a similar title. Friedmann did not get any of it. In the first case time axis is an arbitrary vector that may point to any relative to a plane direction, in the second case the axis is naively reified into a single direction to which is attributed an absolute universal physical significance. Friedmann is explicitly talking about the time since the creation of the world and suchlike. Einstein did not quite get it either. When presented first with Friedmann's mathemagic Einstein intuitively felt it was just a fancy concept but he never had any clear idea why. If he did he would have crushed the concept like a bedbug which he did in the case of Schwarzschild's singularities.
Try Minkowski:Space and Time - Wikisource, the free online library Find Friedmann translated yourself as the cat can read the original and does not know a link to such. Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 344 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Oni,
onifre writes: Scale ICANT, you're not taking size into consideration. I know the distance between the Milky Way and Andromeda seems large to you, but it's not. They are very close together. As with all other galaxies that are close together, some are moving closer to each other and with eventually, but not in all case, unite. You wouldn't live long enough to reach Andromeda traveling at the speed of light. But expansion is based upon:
quote:The Big Bang | Science Mission Directorate Thus expansion is based upon the assumption of all galaxies outside our own Milky Way moving away from us. If everything was in one place at one time and expanded to where it is today there could be no blue shifted galaxies out there if expansion and the BBT is correct. As far as distance between the Earth and Andromeda it is around 2.5 million light years. 2.41019 km
onifre writes: No it has nothing to do with "the space between them." You are confusing what you have read here in the past. For as long as you've been here and discussed this subject, you would think you'd understand some of it by now. Are you saying expansion of space between objects is not taking place?
onifre writes: The space between them is not getting smaller, that is ridiculous. So you are saying that space is not expanding. Andromeda and the Milky is getting closer together. That being the case they did not originate in a central point, as demanded by the BBT.
onifre writes: They are physically moving toward one another as the space around them continues to expand. So the Milky Way and Andromeda are moving through space like our space ships do when they go to the space station, is that what you are saying? If so what is the mechanism for such movement?
onifre writes: Expansion occurs at a very grand scale. So if the BBT is correct Expansion never took place because it had no grand scale to take place in. That is unless space is what is expanding and separating the different entities in the universe. But that can't be as there are some that are blue shifted. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 1051 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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So the Milky Way and Andromeda are moving through space like our space ships do when they go to the space station, is that what you are saying? If so what is the mechanism for such movement? The two galaxies are in orbit around each other, ICANT. The mechanism is something called gravity, which is involved in other orbiting things, like the Earth and its moon. As there are at least a few dozen galaxies, three of them of comparable size, in our Local Group, the orbits are more chaotic than the ones in our Solar System. This is why an eventual collision is in the works. 2,500,000 light years is pretty dang close on the scale of the observable universe. I personally have seen an object, 3C273, that's about a thousand times as far from us as the Andromeda galaxy is - and that with my 6-inch reflector. On that sort of scale, galaxies/clusters of galaxies are moving apart. On local scales, like a piddly 24,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters, gravity can dominate that overall expansion. "The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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onifre Member (Idle past 3267 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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If you don't want to learn that's ok, but don't pretend to know something you don't. You're sounding quite silly at this point.
You wouldn't live long enough to reach Andromeda traveling at the speed of light. And yet it's still considered close to us by comparison. It's in our Local Group.
Thus expansion is based upon the assumption of all galaxies outside our own Milky Way moving away from us. Not all, but most. Those in our Local Group can be seen moving toward us because they are close enough to observe their motion. The farther the galaxies are from us the only thing we can observe is their red-shifting.
Blues Shifting Galaxies quote: So the Milky Way and Andromeda are moving through space like our space ships do when they go to the space station, is that what you are saying? Yes, but not using rockets or any method of propulsion like those found on space shuttles.
If so what is the mechanism for such movement? Gravity, ICANT. The gravity between the two galaxies is drawing them together, ICANT. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 344 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Oni,
onifre writes: Gravity, ICANT. The gravity between the two galaxies is drawing them together, ICANT. So how did they get separated in the first place? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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onifre Member (Idle past 3267 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
So how did they get separated in the first place? Don't change your questions to go deeper into confusion. Do you understand everything I wrote above? Do you get that gravity is pulling them together? - Oni
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 1051 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
They each formed from collisions of protogalaxies that had formed from clouds of gas. Likely all the whole mess were gravitationally linked to each other. I can't find a link at this moment, but I don't think Andromeda and the Milky Way have yet had time for more than a couple of do-si-dos around each other.
"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 4283 days) Posts: 565 Joined:
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The Hubble law is ever defied by the gravity drawing the simian towards its blue shifted stupidity. That's why the ape is blessed with BBT
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ICANT Member (Idle past 344 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Oni,
onifre writes: Do you get that gravity is pulling them together? I understand that you and others believe that. I also understand that there are others that don't believe that. If space between the two is expanding at the speed of light how can they get closer together? I know we will invoke gravity and space ceases to expand. between the galaxy's as it does in the galaxy. Thus we say the galaxies are gravitationally bound. That being the case why is the Milky Way and Andromeda not gravitationally bound to a larger group which is bound to a larger group etc. Then what is expanding? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member (Idle past 344 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Coragyps,
Coragyps writes: I can't find a link at this moment, but I don't think Andromeda and the Milky Way have yet had time for more than a couple of do-si-dos around each other. There are 17 satelite galaxies orbiting the Milky Way, and Andromeda is not one of them. There are 23 satelite galaxies orbiting Andromeda and the Milky Way is not one of them. God Bless, The Milky Way and Andromeda are on a head on collision course."John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If space between the two is expanding at the speed of light, how can they get closer together? Space between the two is not expanding at the speed of light. The Hubble parameter is about 70 km/s per Megaparsec. The Andromeda galaxy is 0.8 Mpc away from the Milkway so space between the two galaxies is expanding at about 60 Km/s. On the other hand the radial velocity of the Andromeda is about 300 km/s towards us. Hence we see a blue shift. No, gravity is not stopping the expansion of space between Milky Way Andromeda galaxy. No one has made such a claim. If things worked as you suggest no astronomical objects could ever approach each other. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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