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Author Topic:   The one and only non-creationist in this forum.
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3992 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 136 of 558 (679046)
11-12-2012 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
11-11-2012 9:35 PM


Re: Gravity!
Of course. Every last single bit of stuff that exists is interacting with every other bit that is present no matter how far any of them are apart. The intensity of that interaction is a function of distance. That is the inverse square law.
That is the given configuration whatever is the concrete mechanism of such mutual influence of all that exists and that is felt as gravity. This much is certain since the opposite proposition runs into contradictions. That's Mach principle.
The ape is sent that supreme reason by God or the Universe yet it keeps receding from the red-shifted gift attracted instead to all sorts of collective idiocy. It wants to believe space is something that can expand and it foolishly persists in such a bizarre superstition. Now logically there are only two possibilities and both exclude any expansion of space. Either the Universe does not expand and the redshift is an effect having nothing to do with any recessional motion or the observable cosmos is indeed expanding into a wider area though in this case it is again the objects that are uniformly moving away making the Earth an absolute centre of that expanding region.
In both cases space may not expand having no properties whatsoever. Simple. But the silly creature may go on believing this nonsense for a few decades more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2012 9:35 PM ICANT has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2976 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 137 of 558 (679243)
11-13-2012 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
11-11-2012 9:35 PM


You're right
I understand that you and others believe that.
It's not a matter of belief. It is a fact that gravity is pulling them together. That's what the evidence shows.
I also understand that there are others that don't believe that.
Who? What "others"? Name a scientist that has come to a different conclusion based on the evidence.
If space between the two is expanding at the speed of light how can they get closer together?
NoNukes gave a great answer to it, with the math to support and explain it.
I know we will invoke gravity and space ceases to expand.
No one has said anything about the space ceasing to expand.
Thus we say the galaxies are gravitationally bound. That being the case why is the Milky Way and Andromeda not gravitationally bound to a larger group which is bound to a larger group etc. Then what is expanding?
You've already been explained all of this. You, as usually, don't understand what is being explained to you.
At this point, believe whatever you want to believe. It really doesn't matter. It's not like anything you're saying will change the evidence or the conclusions long established and studied at universities.
You have the opportunity to learn you just seem more comfortable in ignorance. I can't help you with that. So, fine, have it your way: Nothing is expanding. Nothing is red-shifting or blue-shifting. There is no shifting of any kind and the Big Bang is not real. You feel better now? You broke the conspiracy. We've been making it all up.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2012 9:35 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3992 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 138 of 558 (679263)
11-13-2012 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by NoNukes
11-11-2012 11:44 PM


Re: Gravity!
So given that the expanding distance between a theoretician's ears is about one hundredth of a femtoparsec what is the peculiar velocity of the ears proper holding the head in one piece? Can you give the cat a figure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2012 11:44 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 139 of 558 (679304)
11-13-2012 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-10-2012 1:10 AM


Re: Vatican sophistry
Remember, it is you lot who are making all the positive tall claims.
As are you. You are claiming that a universe can not expand unless there is something to expand into. Where is your support for this claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-10-2012 1:10 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-14-2012 4:59 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 140 of 558 (679305)
11-13-2012 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-10-2012 7:14 AM


Re: Vatican sophistry
He is asking the cat to support the observation that some available room is needed to move in each and every case where a motion of physical objects has occurred.
False. I am challenging the claim that room is needed in each and every case. Where is your support?
The process of expansion is a two entities relation. One entity expands and another is being expanded into. No exceptions.
Evidence please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-10-2012 7:14 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-13-2012 11:51 AM Taq has replied
 Message 148 by ICANT, posted 11-14-2012 12:52 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 141 of 558 (679307)
11-13-2012 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by ICANT
11-10-2012 5:17 PM


Re: Creation
The BBT requires the Universe have a beginning to exist. Thus it had to be created from non existence, which is an impossibility.
Why couldn't it have been created from existence? Lightning has a beginning, so does that mean lightning comes from non-exsitence?
You are just like Mr. Maddenstein. You are making claims you have zero evidence for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ICANT, posted 11-10-2012 5:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 11-14-2012 12:21 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 142 of 558 (679308)
11-13-2012 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-11-2012 4:45 AM


Re: Raisin Muffin
The distance between points is kept as vague, the actual borderline where gravity ends and the putative anti-gravity the clowns call the devil's energy begins its sphere of influence is equally left darkly undefined so the quacks can get away with any murder on large scales.
That's false as well. The force of gravity and dark energy are well defined. Gravity decreases over distance while dark energy increases.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-11-2012 4:45 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 11-14-2012 12:29 AM Taq has replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3992 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 143 of 558 (679333)
11-13-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Taq
11-13-2012 10:52 AM


Re: Vatican sophistry
What gall you've got, Tacky!! Your shyster skills are missed in the court of law. In science we don't deal with dubious evidence to persuade the jury and the crowd. In science we conceptualise and explain. The verb to expand is conceptualised from all the instances of the process. In every instance such a process involves two entities. The expanding entity always has a physical border. The other entity is always greater in size. No exceptions. No monkey tricks. Expansion in this case is claimed to signify an increase in the physical volume of the Universe. The volume must necessarily be gained from another already existing volume. The Universe is surrounded by nothing by definition. Nothing takes no place to exist, what takes no place to exist has no volume to impart. Contradiction in your shyster story. Therefore the concept "expanding universe" is a piece of gobbledegook you are peddling to the jury and the crowd.
It's up to you to show the judge how this clear meaning of the physical term could be violated without you being laughed out of court for lying through your teeth and dealing in nonsense. What you do instead is abusing language and claiming that the prosecution must bring evidence that you do not.
Show how it is possible to move when all the free room is blocked, impeded or absent. Space is exactly what allows motion so itself it may not move, silly. If you deal crap to the cat, he will make you eat all of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 10:52 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2012 12:02 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied
 Message 145 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 12:47 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 144 of 558 (679341)
11-13-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-13-2012 11:51 AM


Re: Vatican sophistry
The verb to expand is conceptualised from all the instances of the process. In every instance such a process involves two entities. The expanding entity always has a physical border. The other entity is always greater in size.
The problem isn't with the science behind the cosmology, the problem is with the limited scope of the usage of the word used to describe it: "expand".
But the limited scope of the usage of the word "expand" places no limits or errors on the underlying science behind the cosmology.
Therefore the concept "expanding universe" is a piece of gobbledegook
That you think a semantic argument has any effect on the scientific data shows that your either stupid or trolling.
It's up to you to show the judge how this clear meaning of the physical term could be violated without you being laughed out of court for lying through your teeth and dealing in nonsense.
The scientific data is not contrained by the clear meaning of the english words that are used to analogize them.
Its the fault of language, not the fault of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-13-2012 11:51 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-14-2012 4:21 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 145 of 558 (679356)
11-13-2012 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-13-2012 11:51 AM


Re: Vatican sophistry
In science we don't deal with dubious evidence to persuade the jury and the crowd. In science we conceptualise and explain.
In science, we do deal with evidence. That's the whole point.
The expanding entity always has a physical border.
Evidence please.
Expansion in this case is claimed to signify an increase in the physical volume of the Universe. The volume must necessarily be gained from another already existing volume.
Evidence please.
The Universe is surrounded by nothing by definition.
Where? From everything I have read, there is no evidence one way or the other.
It's up to you to show the judge how this clear meaning of the physical term could be violated . . .
No, it is up to you to show that your claims are backed by evidence. Shifting the burden of proof only shows how shallow your claims are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-13-2012 11:51 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-14-2012 5:10 AM Taq has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 146 of 558 (679473)
11-14-2012 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Taq
11-13-2012 10:54 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Why couldn't it have been created from existence?
That is my point it was. There had to be existence for the Uiverse to begin to exist.
Taq writes:
Lightning has a beginning, so does that mean lightning comes from non-exsitence?
You know better than that.
Lightning happens when specific conditions occur in the atmosphere.
So no, there is a cause for lightning.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 10:54 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Taq, posted 11-14-2012 10:53 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 147 of 558 (679475)
11-14-2012 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Taq
11-13-2012 10:55 AM


Re: Raisin Muffin
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Gravity decreases over distance while dark energy increases.
Does that mean that there is no dark energy between the Milky Way and Andromeda?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 10:55 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2012 4:41 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 160 by Taq, posted 11-14-2012 11:00 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 148 of 558 (679482)
11-14-2012 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Taq
11-13-2012 10:52 AM


Re: Vatican sophistry
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
The process of expansion is a two entities relation. One entity expands and another is being expanded into. No exceptions.
Evidence please.
Take the balloon you guys are always talking about and put your dots on it. Get you a 1 qt. syrup bottle that has the very small neck. Stuff the balloon into the bottle. Once you have all the baloon in the bottle you will notice that there is a lot of space between the balloon and the glass of the bottle. Now begin to blow air into the balloon and it will began to fill the space inside the bottle until the bottle is full. You will notice then that the balloon will try to escape out of the bottle at the point you are introducing air. But try as you may you will not get the balloon to expand any further inside the bottle, as it has reached the limit it can expand.
Now take another balloon and do not put it in anyting and begin to blow it up. It will burst before it fills the space around it.
Therefore if the Universe is expanding it is expanding into existence.
If there had not been existence for that little pea sized thing I am told existed at T+1/100 of a billionth of a second it would still be that size.
As the cat says for something to expand it has to have something to expand into.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 10:52 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2012 4:31 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 159 by Taq, posted 11-14-2012 10:56 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 149 of 558 (679485)
11-14-2012 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by NoNukes
11-11-2012 11:44 PM


Re: Gravity!
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
300 km/s towards us.
Shouldn't that number read 300 km/h?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2012 11:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2012 4:20 AM ICANT has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4170 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 150 of 558 (679497)
11-14-2012 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-13-2012 6:34 AM


Re: Gravity!
well if you...fygyfyj then ugukguknhmv you will begin to see bbjfyfyugu, once you grasp this then cdserhg is the only clear outcome.

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
― Isaac Asimov
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-13-2012 6:34 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied

  
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