Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,821 Year: 3,078/9,624 Month: 923/1,588 Week: 106/223 Day: 4/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creationism Road Trip
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 166 of 409 (680276)
11-18-2012 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
11-18-2012 9:53 PM


Re: When is the flood?
Well, we AREN'T "looking through deep time" for the Flood. It DID occur about 4300 years ago -- and the Bible itself is the source of the calculations. I don't know why there are those other dates, either, it's depressing that there's so much discrepancy. I go with Morris. It's all recent time. It's just that the entire geological column was laid down IN THE FLOOD around 4300 BC, so it isn't "deep time" at all.
Ay, there's the rub!
The geological column was not laid down around 4,300 years ago (nor BC either!). On this point the evidence is unambiguous.
You just keep making up "what-ifs" so that you can support your beliefs in spite of all of that evidence against you.
If you can't accept evidence, what use is there presenting it to you? Your mind appears like a steel trap: rusted shut.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 9:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:31 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 409 (680281)
11-18-2012 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
11-18-2012 10:33 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
From all the bazillions of tons of loose sediments carried in the Flood waters that had been scoured off the land mass in the early stages of the Flood.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 11-18-2012 10:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 11-18-2012 11:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 218 by RAZD, posted 11-19-2012 9:26 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 409 (680282)
11-18-2012 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Coyote
11-18-2012 10:57 PM


Re: When is the flood?
Well we could argue about which side of this debate has the most minds that are rusted shut on their particular beliefs.
I was glad to find the Biblical Geology guy because he's one, and there are others, who does believe the Flood accounts for the entire geological column as I do, even though most of the creationists who come through EvC don't accept that idea.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2012 10:57 PM Coyote has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 409 (680284)
11-18-2012 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
11-18-2012 11:26 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
Well let's see if that holds up to examination.
Do you know what schist looks like?
Do you know what it is made from?
And exactly which early stage of the flood?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:43 PM jar has replied

  
Boof
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 99
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


Message 170 of 409 (680285)
11-18-2012 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
11-18-2012 10:31 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
Faith writes:
The weight of the stack, some two miles deep or so, put pressure on the lowest layers in conjunction with the volcanic magma and heat from below, to form the granite and schist.
And what mechanism brought these schists and granites back to the surface Faith? I am aware of some eclogites in Australia which were formed at depths of 45km. I'm sure there are some which have probably formed even deeper. If these are now at the surface and were formed, as you contend, during the flood they have thus risen at rates of 5-10m per year. But nobody noticed. Even more mysteriously they have now completely stopped rising. But before you go too far down the track of telling me how they got where they are I suggest you do some research on depressurisation melting - strange things happen to rocks when you rapidly reduce them from high pressures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 10:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:50 PM Boof has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 409 (680286)
11-18-2012 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
11-18-2012 11:39 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
schist is a metamorphic rock that takes heat to form.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 11-18-2012 11:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 11-19-2012 9:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 172 of 409 (680287)
11-18-2012 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
11-18-2012 10:31 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
The weight of the stack, some two miles deep or so, put pressure on the lowest layers in conjunction with the volcanic magma and heat from below, to form the granite and schist.
So you're suggesting that schist and granite only occur at the bottom of the rock column? I suggest you do a little research on schist and granite and buried flood basalts, and consider retracting that silly argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 10:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:47 PM roxrkool has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 409 (680288)
11-18-2012 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by roxrkool
11-18-2012 11:43 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
I did research on all that but some time ago and don't feel like looking it up again right now. If I have it wrong I have it wrong. It takes heat and or pressure to form metamorphic rock as i recall and granite is a volcanic product. I'm only responding to jar's challenges, you seem to be introducing another subject. Perhaps you could be more specific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by roxrkool, posted 11-18-2012 11:43 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by roxrkool, posted 11-19-2012 12:05 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 409 (680289)
11-18-2012 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Boof
11-18-2012 11:40 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
Back to the surface of what and from what? I have no idea what you are talking about. Jar was talking about the Vishnu schist at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. I added a remark about the granite that is also there. There is a volcano beneath the canyon, and diagrams show magma intruding into the schist. It is perfectly reasonable to explain its formation by the volcanic heat and the pressure of a two mile deep stack of sediments above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Boof, posted 11-18-2012 11:40 PM Boof has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Boof, posted 11-19-2012 12:00 AM Faith has replied
 Message 178 by foreveryoung, posted 11-19-2012 12:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Boof
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 99
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


Message 175 of 409 (680291)
11-19-2012 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
11-18-2012 11:50 PM


The ENTIRE geological column.
Tell me Faith - does the flood model refer to the entire geological column as you purport, or does it only apply to the Grand Canyon? If it is the entire geological column how do my ecglogites get from 45km burial depth back up to the Earth's surface in 4000 years without melting again as geophysics tell us they will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 12:02 AM Boof has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 176 of 409 (680292)
11-19-2012 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Boof
11-19-2012 12:00 AM


Re: The ENTIRE geological column.
I have NO idea what you are talking about. Again, I am responding to a particular shallenge about Vishnu schist. Period. Yes, the geological column all over the world had to have been formed by the Flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Boof, posted 11-19-2012 12:00 AM Boof has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by foreveryoung, posted 11-19-2012 12:21 AM Faith has replied
 Message 182 by Boof, posted 11-19-2012 12:24 AM Faith has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 177 of 409 (680293)
11-19-2012 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
11-18-2012 11:47 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
I'm addressing your suggestion that schist and granite were formed following the great flood as a result of compression and heat due to the overlying sediments. In OE, that's certainly possible, though you'd have to add a whole lot more overlying sediment and tectonic stress. But large amounts of granite and schist are found exposed on the surface of the earth today, mostly in mountain ranges. Sometimes, very large mountain ranges.
How did these rocks form without the overlying sediments to bury, compress, and allow them to cook deep in the earth?
------
Granite is a plutonic rock which forms from the cooling and crystallization of magma in the subsurface, generally, several kilometers deep. Granite has a medium-grained texture, meaning you can see the individual minerals forming the rock.
Volcanic rocks cool and crystallize in the surface or near-surface environment, and tend to be finer-grained. Rhyolite is the surface/near-surface equivalent of granite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 12:18 AM roxrkool has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(2)
Message 178 of 409 (680294)
11-19-2012 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
11-18-2012 11:50 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
faith writes:
Back to the surface of what and from what? I have no idea what you are talking about. Jar was talking about the Vishnu schist at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. I added a remark about the granite that is also there. There is a volcano beneath the canyon, and diagrams show magma intruding into the schist. It is perfectly reasonable to explain its formation by the volcanic heat and the pressure of a two mile deep stack of sediments above.
While 2 miles of sediment may seem like a lot of weight, it is not enough to create the pressures necessary to turn soft sediments into hard schist. It might be enough to turn soft sediments into sedimentary rocks however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 11:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 12:20 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 409 (680295)
11-19-2012 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by roxrkool
11-19-2012 12:05 AM


Re: Getting to the details.
Well I'm very glad to hear that at least in principle I'm making some sense. Feel free to add all the tectonic stress you want as that is considered by many creationists to have occurred somewhere after or in the later stages of the Flood, and it seems to have occurred in conjunction with volcanic activity as well. A volcano did erupt beneath the canyon, partly spilling over the canyon walls in one place, and I believe there is also a large pluton beneath the canyon which may explain why that area has a mounded appearance. A mound into which the canyon was cut. But I understand that there are other possible explanations for the lifting of the land there.
Exposed granite? Formed deep in the earth of course, pushed up by tectonic forces?

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by roxrkool, posted 11-19-2012 12:05 AM roxrkool has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 180 of 409 (680296)
11-19-2012 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by foreveryoung
11-19-2012 12:15 AM


Re: Getting to the details.
Remember the volcano beneath as well as the layers above. And remember also that those were very very wet sediments. Adds a bit of weight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by foreveryoung, posted 11-19-2012 12:15 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by foreveryoung, posted 11-19-2012 12:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024