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Author Topic:   Why does Jesus misquote the Old Testament so often?
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 31 of 85 (67854)
11-19-2003 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by keith63
11-19-2003 9:25 PM


Only the apostles were in a position to know for sure if Jesus was resurrected and appeared to them. For anyone else it must be taken on faith. And these apostles demonstrated all to eagerly ...
It is the height of arrogance to dismiss the the desciples of Kali, of Mitra, of Apollonius, etc. It is equally arrogant, or ignorant, to similarly dismiss the disciples of Gnosticism.
Sorry, keith63, but you know absolutely nothing about what, if anything, the apostles migh or might not have done other than what you think you know through reading redacted, 2nd-hand accounts, crafted decades after the fact, and carefully filtered by Church censorship. The relative success of Christianity over competing fantasies is due, more than anything else, to Constantine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 9:25 PM keith63 has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 32 of 85 (67899)
11-20-2003 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by keith63
11-19-2003 9:25 PM


But instead of that they chose to set out, with no or little money, and expose themselves to ridicule, loneliness, open hostility, and in 11 of the 12 apostles even death.
Which is complete hearsay of course. There is no good evidence to support the deaths of eleven apostles, it is pure tradition. The church cannot even agree on how Paul died.
I challenged a Xian at this site to provide evidence for the deaths of just 5 apostles, he couldnt do it, maybe you could? By evidence, of course, I don't mean the usual circular arguments.
Lee Stobel's book, and I did toss it, well I had borrowed it and gave it back, is about as convincing as the Josh Macdowell nonsense.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 9:25 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 1:20 PM Brian has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 85 (68005)
11-20-2003 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brian
11-20-2003 3:59 AM


Does the bible have some translating errors? of course. It was not written in English and there are some words which don't translate into English.
Does it have some copying errors? Probably. It was copied by hand(no computers or printing presses) by humans who are prone to make mistakes.
Did the Authors of all the books write the entire books? Probably not since many of the books include the deaths of the authors.
Do we have the actual first written copies that the authors themselves wrote? Of course not. They were written down on sheep skins or papyrus so we have to rely on copies of copies.
Is that a reason to "toss the baby out with the bathwater?" I think not.
If the Bible were the inspired word of God then we should see evidence of this without focusing on punctuation errors, translating errors or copying errors. To do this is to miss the point.
If the bible were not inspired then how do you explain Israel? The bible says that Israel would be removed from their land and scattered to the wind to be trampled by the Gentiles. Germany seems to be just one example of this.
The bible says that God will preserve a remnant so that his promise to Abraham would not be broken. Israel is still here while many of the nations prophesied about have disappeared.
The bible says that Israel would be gathered from the four winds and return to their land. I believe that was fulfilled in 1948. At that time Israel was attacked by its Arab neighbors and with just barely a home they miraculously defeated all their attackers taking even more land.
They were again attacked by their neighbors in the six day war. They were attacked on all sides and not only did they win but they won in only six days!! If you every need proof of a modern day miracle, here it is. That makes desert storm look like an eternity.
The bible says at the end of time everyone will be against Israel (battle or Armageddon) I'm not sure how many friends Israel has right now. The US may be the only one.
The bible says that the temple will be rebuilt because it is mentioned that the antichrist will defile the temple. I've been to Israel and seen the materials, which have already been gathered to rebuild the temple. You can check out a site about that yourself. Here are just two of the many on the topic. The first one even talks about the location of the Ark of the Covenant.
Page not found - Temple Institute
Page not found – Discover The Book of Revelation
The bible says in the last days men will be forced to take a number on their hand or forehead to purchase or buy anything. Never before has this been possible. We even insert microchips into dogs and there is already talk of inserting them into children to locate them if they are abducted.
So keep spinning your wheels and focusing on the punctuation mistakes to disprove the bible but the fact remains that the overall focus of the bible is consistent, clear, and seems to be quite predictive. By the way the old argument that the bible was written after the events doesn’t seem to apply to Israel now does it.
Luckily for you the Bible does say that the God of the Bible loves you regardless of your sins and wants to save you. The Bible is a book of hope and love and is inspired by God even though it comes to us through fallible man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 11-20-2003 3:59 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 1:24 PM keith63 has not replied
 Message 37 by Brian, posted 11-20-2003 2:05 PM keith63 has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 85 (68006)
11-20-2003 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by keith63
11-20-2003 1:20 PM


quote:
Is that a reason to "toss the baby out with the bathwater?" I think not.
It is, however, a reason to toss out a direct, literal interpretation.
If you don't have the specific wording, you can't base your interpretation on the specific wording.
I mean come on, that's just common sense.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 1:20 PM keith63 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 11-20-2003 1:32 PM Dan Carroll has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 35 of 85 (68009)
11-20-2003 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dan Carroll
11-20-2003 1:24 PM


But all these predictions of phrophecy have came to pass as Keith said, if we can read and understand then why is it such a problem?
- Because bible haters want to show the words to be wrong. But be honest Dan - no words wwould make any sense whatsoever if it was as uninterpretable as the bible haters make out. Have you read it - how can you possibly know any story in it if it's so indecipherable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 1:24 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 1:46 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 85 (68015)
11-20-2003 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
11-20-2003 1:32 PM


quote:
But all these predictions of phrophecy have came to pass as Keith said, if we can read and understand then why is it such a problem?
The bible also says that all those prophecies will happen within a single generation. Do you see the trouble with language that sets in here?
For the love o' crimney, I've seen people argue on this board that Jesus didn't mean "this generation" but actually meant "this generation." (Warning to the humorless: that was exaggeration) Language is not as simple as 1 + 1 = 2, and trying to say "look what it says. The words. Right there." can only work against the Bible's accuracy.
How many times has "death vs. spiritual death" come up around here? Right now Zealot is arguing with Revenge of Reason that Paul doesn't say that Jesus was the first to rise from the grave, when the freakin' words say that Jesus is the first to rise from the grave.
So maybe the "bible haters" have the right idea, when we say that maybe it shouldn't be read for literal accuracy?
quote:
Because bible haters want to show the words to be wrong.
Bit of a blanket statement, isn't it? Personally, I don't give a crap if people think it's right or wrong, as long as they're not trying to affect government policy on the basis of thinking it's right.
quote:
But be honest Dan - no words wwould make any sense whatsoever if it was as uninterpretable as the bible haters make out.
Where are you getting that from? The only thing we "bible haters" say is that you can't get a literal interpretation from a flawed translation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 11-20-2003 1:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 2:30 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 37 of 85 (68019)
11-20-2003 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by keith63
11-20-2003 1:20 PM


Hi,
What on Earth are you on about, LOL ave you posted this to the wrong person?
I was asking about the deaths of the Apostles.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 1:20 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 2:36 PM Brian has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 85 (68029)
11-20-2003 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Dan Carroll
11-20-2003 1:46 PM


1Cr 1;18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Base on this prophesy I have no doubt that you would try to pick apart the bible. The Bible tells us this will happen.
1Cr 1;19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1;20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1;21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Mat 13;14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mar 4;12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
The Bible also correctly predicts what will become of all your attempts and what you consider wisdom.
And I just can’t resist this one.
2 Ptr 3;3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Ptr 3;4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation
2 Ptr 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Look. You are actually fulfilling prophecy even as we speak. You are the proof you are looking for to support the accuracy of the Bible.
If you read on in 2 peter chapter 3 you will see the Bible’s response to your question about this Generation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 1:46 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 2:40 PM keith63 has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 85 (68030)
11-20-2003 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Brian
11-20-2003 2:05 PM


I was replying to you. The fact that you can't locate evidence about the death of the apostles from sources outside the bible doesn't distract from the accuracy of the bible. You are choosing things to argue about to distract and sidestep the true meaning of the Bible. I have also just submitted some other prophecies from the Bible that applies to you. You are also fulfilling Biblical prophecy. lol!! Congratulations!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Brian, posted 11-20-2003 2:05 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Brian, posted 11-20-2003 3:36 PM keith63 has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 85 (68031)
11-20-2003 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by keith63
11-20-2003 2:30 PM


quote:
Base on this prophesy I have no doubt that you would try to pick apart the bible. The Bible tells us this will happen.
Look. You are actually fulfilling prophecy even as we speak. You are the proof you are looking for to support the accuracy of the Bible.
Ahem... I proclaim that moon men are beaming signals into your brain that command you to believe in the Bible. These signals will also cause you to argue against the idea that moon men even exist. So if you say I'm wrong... well, it just proves that the moon men are doing their job well, doesn't it?
Ridiculous logic? You bet.
quote:
The Bible also correctly predicts what will become of all your attempts and what you consider wisdom.
Or it just says that Christianity isn't for wise people. "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise" certainly sounds like "I will make otherwise smart people into dullards."
Look at that, a literal reading can present two meanings.
quote:
If you read on in 2 peter chapter 3 you will see the Bible’s response to your question about this Generation.
Just read it. Care to provide a specific line? I'm not seeing it.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 2:30 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 2:55 PM Dan Carroll has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 85 (68036)
11-20-2003 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dan Carroll
11-20-2003 2:40 PM


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
What part is hard?
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
It even apears that God is talking about you again. You see how the God of the Universe loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 2:40 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 3:01 PM keith63 has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 85 (68038)
11-20-2003 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by keith63
11-20-2003 2:55 PM


quote:
What part is hard?
The part where he addresses the fact that Jesus said the prophecies would happen within a single generation, and the prophecies didn't happen before that generation died. Where does he do that?
quote:
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
So what? He said "this generation". It doesn't matter if a day is a thousand years or vice versa. He said that generation wouldn't pass until the prophecies were filled. They've passed, and the prophecies weren't fulfilled before it happened.
quote:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
And yet it would certainly seem that he was slack in his promise, if we continue to read "this generation" literally, wouldn't it?
Gee, maybe a literal interpretation isn't the way to go if you want the Bible to make any sense...
quote:
You see how the God of the Universe loves you.
Well, that's nice of him. What does it have to do with what I'm talking about, though?
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 2:55 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 3:40 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 43 of 85 (68042)
11-20-2003 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by keith63
11-20-2003 2:36 PM


Try reading what I post next time LOL
I didnt say that I couldnt find evidence for the deaths of the Apostles, I said that the bible nerd couldn't, and more than likely you cannot either!
Also, you are using the deaths of the Apostles to support the accuracy of the claims in made in the Bible, 'it must be true because who on Earth would die for something they don't believe in?' , the thing is you don't even know how they died, you don't even know if they existed, it is YOU who is using the Bible as proof that the Bible is accurate. Welcome to the world of circular arguments and self delusion.
You are choosing things to argue about to distract and sidestep the true meaning of the Bible.
I know the true meaning of the Bible, it is people like you who have no clue about it, and try to make the Bible into something it clearly isn't.
You are also fulfilling Biblical prophecy
LOL you are fulfilling quite a few yourself!
Anyway, the argumnt from prophecy went out the window about 150 years ago when it was realised how pointless it was. I reckon the fact revealed in the Bible that God tells lies to his prophets to test people kind of limits the vaue of prophecy. Hey, maybe Jesus was a false prophet, so many of his prophecies have failed, now wouldn't that would be quite a coup for the scary man downstairs?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 2:36 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by keith63, posted 11-20-2003 4:07 PM Brian has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 85 (68043)
11-20-2003 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dan Carroll
11-20-2003 3:01 PM


if we continue to read "this generation" literally
Wasn't your argument earlier that the Bible couldn't be taken literally? So which point are you going to argue? is literal or not? So maybe
"this generation".
is meant to be a metaphor for our time. Again you are focusing on one word to distract from the entire issue. Are the prophecies about Israel and the last days coming true? They sure appear to be and with uncanny, and for you probably eerie, accuracy.
Well, that's nice of him. What does it have to do with what I'm talking about, though?
What it has to do with is not what you are talking about, but with you!! Even though you have spent countless hours arguing against God, he still loves you and maybe your the one person he is waiting for before the temple gets built and all these things come to pass. I was sure glad he waited on me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 3:01 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 3:46 PM keith63 has replied

The Revenge of Reason
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 85 (68044)
11-20-2003 3:45 PM


Keith, what of the prophicies of the destruction of Damascus and Tyre and what of the prophecy of Babylon conquering Egypt? How about the one of Abraham's descendants occupying the land from the Nile to the Euphrates, and never losing their land and shall be disturbed no more? How about the prophecy of the Nile river drying up? Or the one about Edom becoming a burning pitch for ever more? Our all the other countless prophecies that failed?

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