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Author Topic:   Creationism Road Trip
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 241 of 409 (680459)
11-19-2012 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:54 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Christ wrote the Book. To follow it is to follow Him.
No, Jesus is not a book. He was a man. And the books in the Bible were written long after he died.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:00 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 242 of 409 (680460)
11-19-2012 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:54 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
quote:
Christ wrote the Book. To follow it is to follow Him.
Well there's an unbiblical view for you. There are a good number of books of the Bible that are absolutely clear that they were written by humans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:59 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 409 (680461)
11-19-2012 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by PaulK
11-19-2012 3:58 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Christ.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2012 3:58 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2012 4:03 PM Faith has replied
 Message 249 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2012 4:08 PM Faith has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 244 of 409 (680462)
11-19-2012 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:54 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Christ wrote the Book.
Nope, he didn't. Not the Old Testament and surely not the New Testament as it was written 30+ years after his death. Men wrote and edited the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 409 (680463)
11-19-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by kjsimons
11-19-2012 3:59 PM


It IS God's word
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Christ. The Old Testament is also all about Him as He says in the NT.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by kjsimons, posted 11-19-2012 3:59 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 246 of 409 (680464)
11-19-2012 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:43 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Faith writes:
Sorry, the Bible is the foundation. The facts do have to conform to it, and ultimately we'll see that to be the case. Meanwhile anything that contradicts the Bible has to go.
Well ok, I know that some people seem to need to just believe things. I don't understand it myself, but I know that it's a human trait.
What I really don't get is why you have to try to make it fit with reality - it doesn't and it can't and it will only get worse for you as our knowledge grows. Why can't you just call it magic in your head and get on with it? Why try to square a circle?
Francis Collins - born again Christian and head of the human genome project - had a phrase that stuck for me when tried to explain that evolution was true to other christians, he said some thing like "don't pitch your tent on a slope because in the morning you'll find yourself at the bottom of it".

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:06 PM Tangle has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 409 (680465)
11-19-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:59 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Christ.
So when the Holy Spirit was inspiring the ancient Jewish authors, did they know that the error they were writing were wrong or were they being tricked into thinking they were correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 248 of 409 (680466)
11-19-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Tangle
11-19-2012 4:02 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
I didn't come to believe from any "need" whatever that I was aware of. I wasn't looking for anything.
Once you know that the Bible is God the Creator's own revelation to us blind and deaf human beings you know better than to try to make it conform to the thoughts of other blind and deaf human beings.
I've been studying the stuff connected with this debate for a decade now and the more I know the stronger my faith grows, contrary to your supposition.
The thing I may finally need to learn and am learning now is the futility of the debate. I know it and then I'm just blown away to discover it again. THAT I no doubt need to learn. But trust in God, no, that only grows.
Oh it does fit with reality. I see it though you don't. You will eventually though.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2012 4:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 249 of 409 (680467)
11-19-2012 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:59 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
quote:
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Christ.
If you get to boldly making assertions that even you don't believe then you ought to take a step back and think about your position.
In fact you really need a good dose of self-awareness. You need to recognise that you know very little about geology, and that you are highly prejudiced against it. Is it really plausible that ALL the more knowledgeable and comparatively open-minded people are "blinded" by prejudice and that YOU aren't ? Isn't it the height of arrogance for you to consider it even likely, let alone a fact ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:16 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 409 (680469)
11-19-2012 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2012 4:03 PM


It's God's own word
Peter says the Old Testament writers knew they were writing to a future generation about salvation through the Messiah to come:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. 1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: 1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2012 4:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2012 4:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 257 by nwr, posted 11-19-2012 4:23 PM Faith has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(4)
Message 251 of 409 (680470)
11-19-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Local fllood?
faith writes:
It's possible to nitpick about words to prove just about anything you want. I do doubt that it is true Christians who get engaged in that sort of thing.
Why is any deviation in interpretation of words for your interpretation a "nitpicking"? I can claim that you are nitpicking about words as well. On what basis could you claim i was wrong?
faith writes:
The skills of the English Bible translators, of the KJV and the versions that preceded it, were excellent. Tyndale, the Geneva Bible and others. Why do you think you can do better?
I am not saying they translated it incorrectly. They used the phrase "whole world" and depending on context, that phrase is entirely appropriate as well. It is inappropriate to assume "whole word" means the total surface of the planet earth. Where is your basis for such a stand?
faith writes:
If the Flood was merely local God would not have had Noah spend a hundred years building the ark, He would have had him and his family move to a place where they'd be out of the way of the Flood.
It took a hundred years for a small family to build such a monstrosity. Try building it today with the tools noah had in his day with just you and 3 sons. Beyond that, think of the witnessing tool the ark was. Noah was showing the "whole world" his obedience and faith in God. Do you think he was showing his obedience to people on easter island? The people on easter island and the inuits in the arctic regions of canada, among others, had no idea that noah existed, much less that he was building an ark.
faith writes:
Looks like God had in mind destroying ALL men, ALL flesh. Would that have happened in a limited flood?
He certainly didn't have to use a flood to kill all men on the face of planet earth. In fact, there is evidence that other major catastrophes occurred in other areas of the planet fairly close to the time of noah's flood. Beyond that, ALL flesh doesn't necessarily mean all organisms. Even a world wide flood would not destroy all lifeforms from the earth. A simple, unbiased reading of the text indicates that God destroyed all humans and animals noah depended on for survival in the whole area in which noah was aware of even by word of mouth.
faith writes:
Don't fool around with alternative translations of words for the sake of believing what unbelievers tell you or arguments you think you understand through your own fallible mind.
I don't have to fool around with other translations. I don't necessarily have to get the understanding of the flood story that you do when I read the Kind James Version of Genesis.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 409 (680471)
11-19-2012 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by PaulK
11-19-2012 4:08 PM


It's God's own word
Again, it isn't about ME, it's what GOD says and I've said nothing tht isn't in accord with two millennia of Bible-believing theology.
If any science whatever contradicts what GOD says then yes those who contradict Him are blind.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2012 4:08 PM PaulK has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 253 of 409 (680472)
11-19-2012 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:43 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Hi Faith,
Sorry, the Bible is the foundation. The facts do have to conform to it, and ultimately we'll see that to be the case. Meanwhile anything that contradicts the Bible has to go.
As far as I can see, nothing that I posted in Message 235 contradicts the bible, rather it is asking for specific claims you have made to be actually supported by the bible:
This Flood was huge. ...
Which says nothing about the turbulence of the floodwater. Some floods are gentle.
... It rained torrents for 40 days over the entire earth, ...
It rained, yes, but rain doesn't always cause mudslides.
Do you have a source for your use of the term "torrents"? -- there is a lot of variation in how much water rains down in any given storm.
If you cannot provide a biblical reference for the use of "torrents" then you apparently are making up something that is not (strictly speaking) in the bible.
... A heavy rain now for just a few days in a local area can cause terrible mudslides, ...
Can, but does not always -- it depends on the slope, saturation, and type of soil in each specific instance. We can look at the record of mudslides versus the record of rainfall, in which case I would suggest that mudslides are a rare, rather than a common, result of rain.
In addition, mudslides that have been observed do not cover whole plains of land but peter out soon after the slope gets too flat.
Again can you provide documentation that any mudslides occurred, or are you including pure supposition\imagination rather than anything specifically included in the bible?
... so multiply that effect appropriately. ...
And what is appropriate? 0? How many mudslides are listed in the bible?
... There was also another source of water, the "fountains of the deep" ...
Which could be a gentle welling up of the oceans until the land was covered, a process that would cause little disturbance to any then existing land masses. This also reduces the theoretical amount of rainwater needed to cover the land.
Again, I am unaware of any documented damage from such a source in the bible -- can you provide some?
... and the water covered the entire land mass of the earth and stood there for months. ...
Curiously, standing water is not known for causing any significant erosion or mudslides.
... This can't just be "some erosion" or anything on a scale we can compare to our own time.
Why?
Why should we assume that there was any significant erosion when there is -- apparently -- no documentation of any erosion occurring?
Can you provide a biblical reference to erosion occurring at all?
Would you not agree that a literalist interpretation of the bible is limited to what is specifically mentioned in the bible?
Curiously, I ask these questions for clarity, noting that you have also said:
... Too bad, creationists today come up with just as unbiblical stuff.
So you really need to establish what is actually biblical stuff, and then allow that anything NOT specifically mentioned must be "unbiblical stuff"
So can you answer my questions above?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : format

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:19 PM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 254 of 409 (680473)
11-19-2012 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by RAZD
11-19-2012 4:16 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Curiously, standing water is not known for causing any significant erosion or mudslides.
It's known for DISSOLVING stuff. Soaking, saturating, dissolving.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by RAZD, posted 11-19-2012 4:16 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2012 4:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 270 by RAZD, posted 11-19-2012 4:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 255 of 409 (680475)
11-19-2012 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
11-19-2012 4:12 PM


Re: It's God's own word
Peter says the Old Testament writers knew they were writing to a future generation about salvation through the Messiah to come:
So when they were compliling the laws in Leviticus they knew that they were writing them for you? Do you really follow those laws?
And when Paul, who according to you was inspired by Jesus himself, told Timoty that women should be quiet and not teach men, he knew that he was writing that for you? So then, why do you, a women, presume to teach me, a man?
Jesus, himself, through the inspiration of Paul's words proves that I am right and you are wrong. You have no authority to teach me, according to your own faith. And yet, here you are.
So which is it? Is your faith wrong or do you just not follow it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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