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Author Topic:   Creationism Road Trip
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 286 of 409 (680632)
11-20-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by PaulK
11-20-2012 11:36 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
I have NO idea what you're talking about, bad arguments and so on, sorry, just your own rumination that's undecipherable to me.
I'd guess that rocks got tumbled and broken up in the Flood and that would have contributed to the sediments. Could have been the major source of them for all I know. The Bible suggests that the earth was extraordinarily fecund before the Flood and whatever the deep and fertile soils were made up of could be another contribution.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2012 11:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 11-20-2012 11:49 AM Faith has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 287 of 409 (680634)
11-20-2012 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by nwr
11-20-2012 11:39 AM


Re: Jesus "wrote" the Bible
That's not how the Holy Spirit works in inspiring people. He doesn't interfere with their personalities, He makes use of their personalities and knowledge. He indwells them and guides them through their own human spirit which is dead in fallen humanity but "quickened" at salvation. It's hard to explain how the person works in cooperation with the Spirit and isn't forced. It requires the person's whole devotion to the Lord of course. Yes it's mysterious and you probably have to be a believer to have any sense of it at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by nwr, posted 11-20-2012 11:39 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by nwr, posted 11-20-2012 11:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 288 of 409 (680635)
11-20-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
11-20-2012 10:50 AM


Re: Getting to the details. -- biblical references please
I read the Bible the way it was meant to be read, which is sometimes literal, sometimes poetic, sometimes symbolic, sometimes figurative and so on and so forth
Please provide the codebook to determine when to read it in the many different ways.
Maybe then we can all get on the same page; literally and figuratively.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 10:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 12:02 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 289 of 409 (680636)
11-20-2012 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:42 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
The Bible suggests that the earth was extraordinarily fecund before the Flood and whatever the deep and fertile soils were made up of could be another contribution.
And how do you make fertile soils?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:42 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2012 11:56 AM jar has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 290 of 409 (680637)
11-20-2012 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:46 AM


Re: Jesus "wrote" the Bible
Faith writes:
That's not how the Holy Spirit works in inspiring people. He doesn't interfere with their personalities, He makes use of their personalities and knowledge. He indwells them and guides them through their own human spirit which is dead in fallen humanity but "quickened" at salvation.
But that agrees with what I said, and leads to the same conclusion, which I shall repeat:
myself writes:
The best I can make of "inspired by the Holy Spirit" is that the writers were filled with ideas, but that they wrote those ideas in their own words. And what they wrote would, of necessity, be limited by their own knowledge and by their own cultural assumptions. You can conclude only that it was written for the people of that time who accepted the cultural assumptions of that time. You cannot conclude that it was written for modern Americans with their very different knowledge and cultural assumptions. Add to that the fact that humans, including the humans who wrote the Bible, are error prone.
From that starting point, you can arguably conclude that the Bible is inerrant in matters of faith. You cannot conclude that it is inerrant in matters of science, nor in matters of history.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 291 of 409 (680639)
11-20-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Rahvin
11-19-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Getting to the details.
Rahvin writes:
Indeed, this Flood is so incomparable to even large-scale "conventional" flooding that it seems to have magic properties.
Apparently this magic Flood was capable of not only depositing the entire geological column in one go, not only turning sediment into rock at an impossible pace, it also managed to perfectly preserve nests of eggs without breaking or separating them, sorted the "Sediments" universally such that we never see human fossils below a certain level, preserved footprints in appropriate sediments again never displacing human footprints into levels associated with dinosaurs, and managed to separate completely layers of sand from layers of volcanic rock from layers of limestone containing oceanic fossils.
INDEED. Better to believe in Last Thursdayism.
- nate
Why would this GOD thing lie to you?
Why would you follow a LIAR??

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Dirk
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-20-2010


(4)
Message 292 of 409 (680640)
11-20-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:27 AM


Re: Reading the Bible the way it was meant to be read
I read it the way the Protestant Reformers read it, Sola Scriptura and all that, the way the true believers down the centuries read it.
This is not evidence, this is only shifting the goal posts. Because now you have the problem of defining who is a "true believer". And I am pretty certain that believers who don't take Genesis literally also think that they are true believers.
My evidence that my reading is the right way of reading it is this historical evidence. Thousands of preachers and Christian teachers I've heard and read have taught me how to read it.
Yet there are also thousands of preachers and Christian teachers who taught different ways to read it - they just not taught you. Why are they wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 293 of 409 (680641)
11-20-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
11-20-2012 11:49 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
And how do you make fertile soils?
Here is an example that did not require a god.
Terra Petra
Sorry off topic, but I think a very interesting subject.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 11-20-2012 11:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 11-20-2012 12:13 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 294 of 409 (680642)
11-20-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Theodoric
11-20-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Getting to the details. -- biblical references please
Please provide the codebook to determine when to read it in the many different ways.
I believe you'll find the literary modes of the Bible discussed in the following articles on how to read the Bible from the Reformed point of view, particularly the first one:
Search | Monergism
The Spurgeon Library | Page not found
Page not found - Presbyterian-Reformed Ministries International
Some books on the subject to demontrate that this is a very big topic:
Search | Monergism

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2012 11:48 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Rahvin, posted 11-20-2012 12:18 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 324 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2012 2:20 AM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 409 (680643)
11-20-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:00 AM


Re: Jesus "wrote" the Bible
Jesus is the Logos, the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of God. But I'm not even talking about that, I'm saying that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit who is also called the Spirit of Christ. "Holy men of God were moved by the Spirit" is the New Testament way of describing how scripture was written.
Jesus died, resurrected and ascended, He's living today. He inspired the writing of the New Testament by men through the Holy Spirit just as He did the Old.
Given that: Jesus then, as the Holy Spirit, lead the ancient Jews into believing a bunch of wrong stuff and then came back to them in the flesh to tell them a lot of that stuff that he just inspired them to believe was wrong. Again, you're turning Jesus and God into pranksters.
And regarding Sola Scriptura:
quote:
2 Thessalonians 2
(KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
and
quote:
2 Timothy 2
(KJV)
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
The Bible, itself, confirms that there are sources of knowledge of faith outside of The Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 296 of 409 (680645)
11-20-2012 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Theodoric
11-20-2012 11:56 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
that's a great example of adding nutrients to make soil fertile, but the question is "How do you make the basic soil?" and the only way I know of is to wear down and weather big rocks into smaller and smaller chunks.
That takes time, lots of time.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2012 11:56 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Rahvin, posted 11-20-2012 12:34 PM jar has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(6)
Message 297 of 409 (680648)
11-20-2012 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Faith
11-20-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Getting to the details. -- biblical references please
Faith - How does a Flood, or any flood, deposit sediment with perfectly preserved footprints in the intermediary layers? If, say, a given hundred meters of sediment were deposited, and we find a footprint (doesn't matter what from) fossilized at a 50-meter depth, how does your Flood explain that? Wouldn't the footprint be destroyed, or never even have existed, if that sediment was all deposited in the Flood?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 12:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 298 of 409 (680651)
11-20-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:42 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
quote:
I have NO idea what you're talking about, bad arguments and so on, sorry, just your own rumination that's undecipherable to me.
It's really simple. Your idea that dissolution played a major role in the formation of the rocks we see today is not a good idea. Those rocks are mostly made of substances that dissolve poorly at best. So why is that so hard for you to accept?
More importantly why did you not consider it?
The reasons why you get so frustrated here, why you find debate futile are mainly your fault. You don't put in the effort to construct solid arguments - not taking the time to gather the knowledge or to put the reasoning together. Yet you are going up against a sold and successful field of science. How can you hope to win the debate? Even if your Flood geology happened to be correct you should EXPECT to lose! How can you not SEE that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 299 of 409 (680654)
11-20-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:42 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
Hi Faith,
The problems people are finding with your ideas about the flood fall into two categories:
  • Things that aren't possible.
  • Things that are possible but for which there is no evidence.
There's a third category you've ignored completely: things that are possible for which there is evidence.
You and MindSpawn, who's posting over at Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo, should try to get on the same page. He believes that all layers up until the P-T boundary (Permian-Triassic boundary) are pre-flood, those after are post flood.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 300 of 409 (680655)
11-20-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by jar
11-20-2012 12:13 PM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
Fertile soil is largely decomposed plant material, not just ground-up rock - that would be "sand," which is different.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 11-20-2012 12:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by jar, posted 11-20-2012 1:37 PM Rahvin has replied

  
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