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Author Topic:   The war of atheism
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 286 of 526 (680818)
11-21-2012 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 11:32 AM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Really? She did? When?
Rebecca Watson writes:
and a man sort of broke away from the group -- a man who I had never spoken to before -- came over to me

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 11:32 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 287 of 526 (680820)
11-21-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 11:40 AM


Re: Objectification and rape - Significant problem at atheist/skeptic conferences
"misogynistic thought" was a phrase used by RW in the transcript I provided in Message 259
A message I wrote in reply to youir assertion that no-one but Roxrcool had used the term "misogynist".
It's from the same transcript where she said this:
quote:
Because there are people in this audience right now who believe this: that a woman's reasonable expectation to feel safe from sexual objectification and assault at skeptic and atheist events is outweighed by a man's right to sexually objectify her. That's basically what these people have been telling me, and it's not true. [one person applauds] Thank you, Melody. You know, since starting Skepchick, I've heard from a lot of women who don't attend events like this because of those of you who have this attitude. They're tired of being objectified, and some of them have actually been raped; quite a number of them have been raped, or otherwise sexually assaulted. And situations like the one I was in, in an elevator, would have triggered a panic attack. They're scared, because they know that you won't stand up for them. And if they stand up for themselves, you're going to laugh them back down. And that's why they're not coming out to these events.
You then went on to claim here that a "significant number" of women consider objectification and rape to be a significant problem at atheist/skeptic conferences.
Again - Can you link to a source the provides the basis for this conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 11:40 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:31 PM Straggler has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 288 of 526 (680821)
11-21-2012 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 11:40 AM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
The ones where a privileged gender do it to an unprivileged gender are the ones that are sexist. Similarly, the ones where a privileged race does it to an unprivileged race are the ones that are racist, the ones where a privileged religion does it to an unprivileged religion are religious discrimination, etc. In general, when members of a privileged category completely disregard the individual desires and wishes of members of the unprivileged category, that's discriminatory to the members of the unprivileged category. When the discrimination happens along racial lines, it's called "racist." When it happens along gender lines, it's called "sexist."
So racism is only racism when white discriminates against black, but not when black discriminates against white?

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 11:40 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:24 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 289 of 526 (680824)
11-21-2012 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Straggler
11-21-2012 11:45 AM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
So basically people are "completely disregarding the individual desires and wishes" of others much of the time but only when men do it to women does it qualify as sexism.
Well, no. Not of "others." Of unprivileged others. Almost by definition the privileged don't usually get their individual desires and wishes completely disregarded. That's what the privilege is.
Why?
What do you mean, "why"? Because that's probably what has happened, is why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Straggler, posted 11-21-2012 11:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2012 12:04 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 290 of 526 (680826)
11-21-2012 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 11:55 AM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
So racism is only racism when white discriminates against black, but not when black discriminates against white?
If, in a situation where blacks were privileged and whites were unprivileged, a black person discriminated against a white person, yes, that would be racism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 11:55 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 12:28 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 293 by Rahvin, posted 11-21-2012 12:32 PM crashfrog has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 291 of 526 (680828)
11-21-2012 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 12:24 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Since when does privilege dictate what is considered racism? You are basically saying that it would not be racism for you to tell the king of Rwanda to go eat some fried chicken and watermelon simply because he is privileged.
Racism is racism no matter the race. Sexism is sexism no matter the sex. You ought to stop trying to make special cases.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:36 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 292 of 526 (680830)
11-21-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Straggler
11-21-2012 11:54 AM


Re: Objectification and rape - Significant problem at atheist/skeptic conferences
A message I wrote in reply to youir assertion that no-one but Roxrcool had used the term "misogynist".
To refer to Elevator Guy. You quoted Watson referring to a different person as "parroting... misogynistic thought" in reference to a false accusation that what Watson was objecting to was having been found sexually attractive by someone. Did you think that in doing so, you had somehow contradicted me? As I said, you quoted... somebody... as suggesting that Elevator Guy had been
quote:
exhibiting "misogynistic thoughts"
I'm asking you for the source of your quote. Who do you believe has tried to convince you that Elevator Guy had "misogynistic thoughts"? When you say that you remain "entirely unconvinced" that he did, in what is that reference to? You're responding, apparently, to a number of arguments that I can't find in this thread.
Nobody's used "misogynist" to refer to the Elevator Guy except for Roxrkool, as I said. It's not anybody's contention that he "exhibited 'misogynistic thoughts.'"
Again - Can you link to a source the provides the basis for this conclusion?
I just provided two such sources. What's the issue, here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Straggler, posted 11-21-2012 11:54 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by roxrkool, posted 11-21-2012 2:43 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 369 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2012 9:40 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 380 by roxrkool, posted 11-23-2012 4:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 293 of 526 (680831)
11-21-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 12:24 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
...
So, in the current cultural landscape of the US, it's racist if a white man drops the n-bomb, but not racist if a black man calls a white man a "cracker?"
It's sexist if a man says that all women are gold-digging whores, but not sexist if a woman calls all men wife-beating rapists?
I'm pretty sure that racism and sexism are about discrimination based on race and gender, respectively, and that they have nothing to do with whether one race/gender has "privilege." Racism is racism, and it's always wrong regardless of who's being racist. Same with sexism.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:42 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 294 of 526 (680833)
11-21-2012 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 12:28 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Since when does privilege dictate what is considered racism?
Since always. What a stupid question. What did you think "racism" meant.
You are basically saying that it would not be racism for you to tell the king of Rwanda to go eat some fried chicken and watermelon simply because he is privileged.
I don't see how that's discriminating, exactly. It's evocative of a stereotype that doesn't apply to Rwandans. The "fried chicken and watermelon" stereotype is about southern American black people. In order for me to be racist to the king of Rwanda, I'd have to be able to discriminate against him by virtue of privilege I had that he lacked. Being white in a culture where whites have privilege would be such a privilege.
Racism is racism no matter the race.
I never said that it wasn't. Racism is about privilege and the way it breaks down according to race.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 12:28 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 12:43 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 297 by Rahvin, posted 11-21-2012 12:44 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 358 by onifre, posted 11-22-2012 5:35 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 295 of 526 (680836)
11-21-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Rahvin
11-21-2012 12:32 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
So, in the current cultural landscape of the US, it's racist if a white man drops the n-bomb, but not racist if a black man calls a white man a "cracker?"
It's sexist if a man says that all women are gold-digging whores, but not sexist if a woman calls all men wife-beating rapists?
Yes. Does any of that seem inaccurate, or inconsistent with observation? Inconsistent with your own decision to self-censor your first remark but not your second? Isn't the reaction to a white man using the n-word towards a black man much, much greater than the reaction to a black man using the "c-word" towards a white man? Wouldn't everyone you know basically laugh off the second (even as the target of the remark!) but get extremely angry about the first (even if they heard about it third-hand)?
Why did you think that was, exactly, if not for the fact that the first is racist but the second isn't?
I'm pretty sure that racism and sexism are about discrimination based on race and gender, respectively, and that they have nothing to do with whether one race/gender has "privilege."
How can it have nothing to do with privilege, when without the difference in privilege, discrimination isn't even possible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Rahvin, posted 11-21-2012 12:32 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 296 of 526 (680837)
11-21-2012 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 12:36 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
What did you think "racism" meant.
Judging someone based on race.
I don't see how that's discriminating, exactly.
Racism is not synonymous with discrimination. You should try looking up the definition of racism if you are having such difficulty with this discussion.
Racism is about privilege and the way it breaks down according to race.
Only in crashfrog land, but not reality.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 1:06 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 297 of 526 (680839)
11-21-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 12:36 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
I never said that it wasn't. Racism is about privilege and the way it breaks down according to race.
No. It's not.
That's one aspect of racism. It's not the only one.
quote:
racism
   [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
A black supremacist is just as racist as a white supremacist, regardless of their "privileged" status or lack thereof.
Racism results in privilege when one race carries greater political power than another, but racism is not only privilege. Racism can exist where no actual privilege exists - the Asian father who tells his daughter that she cannot marry a black man is just as racist as the white father who does the same.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 12:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 1:10 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 298 of 526 (680843)
11-21-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 12:43 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Judging someone based on race.
Well, that can't be right. If I find out you're a white person, and I judge that your skin will not, without exposure to sunlight, produce much melanin, would that be racist? Obviously some judgements based on race - for instance, someone's race! - can't be racially discriminatory.
Racism is not synonymous with discrimination.
Yes, it is.
Only in crashfrog land, but not reality.
I'm sorry but that's just nonsense. There's no coherent explication of racism, sexism, or other forms of discrimination without the notion of privilege. For instance, here's the UCLA School of Public Affairs explaining the field of Critical Race Theory:
quote:
CRT recognizes that racism is engrained [sic] in the fabric and system of the American society. The individual racist need not exist to note that institutional racism is pervasive in the dominant culture. This is the analytical lens that CRT uses in examining existing power structures. CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color.[3]
There can be no discrimination without privilege. The notion of privilege is central to identifying what is discrimination and what is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 12:43 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 1:24 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 299 of 526 (680844)
11-21-2012 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Rahvin
11-21-2012 12:44 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
A black supremacist is just as racist as a white supremacist, regardless of their "privileged" status or lack thereof.
No, they're substantially less racist, specifically because of privilege, and the different reaction our society has to one vs the other is proof of that.
Racism can exist where no actual privilege exists - the Asian father who tells his daughter that she cannot marry a black man is just as racist as the white father who does the same.
But that's privilege! Why on Earth do you think there's no privilege in that example? It's full of privilege differential. The privilege of an older adult over a younger one. The privilege of a parent over their adult child. The privilege of a man over a woman. And the privilege of a person of Asian descent over a person of African descent.
It's crammed with privilege, which is why it's racist.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Rahvin, posted 11-21-2012 12:44 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 1:30 PM crashfrog has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 300 of 526 (680847)
11-21-2012 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 1:06 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Yes, it is.
No, it actually is not. But since we are already at an impasse because you are conflating 3 separate words, this discussion goes no further.
There's no coherent explication of racism, sexism, or other forms of discrimination without the notion of privilege.
There actually is. You do realize that black people can be racist against black people, right? My neighbor, a Mexican, doesn't want her daughter to marry a Mexican. THAT IS RACIST by every definition of the word the way every other person not named crashfrog uses it. You really need to get out of your basement and take a journey into the real world. Racism actually exists and is perpetuated by all races, not just white people. Sexism exists and is perpetuated by women and even asexual people.
I understand the guilt you feel for being a white male. It's a horrible burden, I know. But the overly PC shit is trite and makes you really look like a wanker.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 1:06 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 1:58 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
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