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Author Topic:   The war of atheism
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 316 of 526 (680875)
11-21-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 2:58 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
I mean, if white people and black people are each as likely to be subject to racism in exactly the same way, then how do you explain things like institutional racism?
Where, oh fucking where, did I say that on average, White America was equally as subject to racism as black america? Go back and read what I said. I have said OVER AND OVER that racism is racism is racism. I did not say that white people see just as much racism as other races and felt the same effects.
No. I said that racism is not dependent on race to be qualified as racism. Black people can be just as racist as white people. It's about seeking equality, something you will never be able to do if you think it's a-ok to be racist as long as you aren't white.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 2:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:22 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 317 of 526 (680876)
11-21-2012 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 3:00 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
No, crashfrog, RACISM.
Yes, that's what I said - discrimination that happens because of racial privilege. That's what "racism" means.
Are you seriously saying MTV is a white equivalent to BET?
Do you understand the point? Yes or no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:00 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 318 of 526 (680878)
11-21-2012 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 3:07 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
I AM TALKING ABOUT DEFINITIONS OF WORDS.
And the definition of "racism" is "discrimination that happens on the basis of racial privilege."
What "privilege free model" are you fucking talking about?
Jesus, the one you've posted three posts about before I've even had a chance to reply. Did someone hit you on the head, or something? Your model where "racism" has nothing to do with privilege.
Really grasping now aren't ya?
For widespread, rigorous, academic definitions of my terms? Yeah, what a desperation ploy. You really caught me out on that one!
Some days talking with you makes everybody dumber. This is one of those days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:07 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:29 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 319 of 526 (680879)
11-21-2012 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 3:12 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Where, oh fucking where, did I say that on average, White America was equally as subject to racism as black america?
Then how do you explain that they're not equally subject to racism, without recourse to the idea of privilege? Like I said, without privilege you can't understand anything about racism. Literally nothing. And the proof of that is that you don't understand it. You make that obvious each time you post.
It's not racist to be white and called a cracker. There's nobody who will take you seriously if you complain that it is because it's meaningless. It's a joke. It's like the guy in Monty Python: "halp, halp, I'm bein' oppressed!" And that's because of the privilege situation, the difference in racial privilege between the black guy and the white guy. People find it funny because it's completely risible to take it seriously.
I did not say that white people see just as much racism as other races and felt the same effects.
Why do you think they don't, though? That's what I can't understand. How do you explain it, without privilege? It's just random? White people are more racist than black people? How do you explain it?
It's about seeking equality, something you will never be able to do if you think it's a-ok to be racist as long as you aren't white.
I didn't say that it was ok to be a racist as long as you aren't white. You really have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:12 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:36 PM crashfrog has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 320 of 526 (680881)
11-21-2012 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 3:17 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
And the definition of "racism" is "discrimination that happens on the basis of racial privilege."
It's not hard to actually find the real definition of a word. We are on the internet, you know.
Your model where "racism" has nothing to do with privilege.
So now you are going to misrepresent MY position? Where did I say that racism has NOTHING to do with privilege?
Does racism sometimes have stuff to do with privilege? Sometimes.
Is racism wholly dependent on privilege, thus making it NOT racism when the underprivileged commit acts of racism? No (you see that? THAT is my position. You would do well to argue against my position and not one you make up for me).
For widespread, rigorous, academic definitions of my terms?
Widespread? So widespread that your definition isn't even the first 2 that come up.
Some days talking with you makes everybody dumber.
The feeling is mutual.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:39 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 327 by Rahvin, posted 11-21-2012 3:51 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 321 of 526 (680883)
11-21-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 3:22 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
It's not racist to be white and called a cracker.
I didn't say that it was ok to be a racist as long as you aren't white.
How does your head not explode from the cognitive dissonance?
There's nobody who will take you seriously if you complain that it is because it's meaningless. It's a joke.
Just so we are clear: you are saying it's only racism if someone is offended?
You are saying that it is NOT racism if a black person makes a judgement on a white man based on his being a white man ("I bet you can't dance and like country because you are white"). That is not racist, right?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:44 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 322 of 526 (680884)
11-21-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 3:29 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Is racism wholly dependent on privilege, thus making it NOT racism when the underprivileged commit acts of racism?
But racism is wholly dependent on privilege; if privilege did not accrue due to race, then there would be no racism. We wouldn't even have a word for it, just like we don't have a word for "discrimination on the basis of shoe-size-related privilege."
By definition that's true, Hooah. How would you even be able to discriminate against someone on the basis of race without racial privilege? It just doesn't make any sense. That's how I'm able to explain the fact that the only way racial minorities can be racist is if they discriminate against those with less racial privilege than themselves. There's no way to discriminate against someone who is more privileged than you. It can't be done, because discrimination can only happen from more privilege to less. That's why "Male Rights Activist" is such a laughable term. That's why when someone says "white rights", we know immediately they're a racist. All that stuff is true, Hooah. Are you telling me you never once wondered why? Or were you just too dumb to notice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:29 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:44 PM crashfrog has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 323 of 526 (680885)
11-21-2012 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
That's how I'm able to explain the fact that the only way racial minorities can be racist is if they discriminate against those with less racial privilege than themselves.
So, by craqshfrog's definition of his own usage of the term "racist", black people that make judgements against white people based on their skin color ("don't pick that cracker for the basketball team, he can't play ball cuz he's white") are not racist at all?

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:48 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 324 of 526 (680886)
11-21-2012 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 3:36 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
How does your head not explode from the cognitive dissonance?
I don't see the dissonance. Those two statements aren't in any way contradictory. It's wrong to be a racist, no matter what color you are. Racism is 100% wrong regardless of your race.
But by definition, it's not racist for a black person to call a white person a "cracker." It's not racist because it's not discriminatory. And it fails to be discriminatory because the black person has no racial privilege over the white person.
Look, if it were racist to call a white person a "cracker", it would be 100% regardless of the race of the person who did it. But it's only racist if you have racial privilege over the target of the epithet. If you don't, it's nothing. It's just a word. Hell, maybe it's even a word you use to refer to your close friends, or to let someone know they're in your ingroup. Didn't you ever wonder why black people can use the n-word amongst themselves but white people can't? It's because white people have racial privilege over black people.
And since there's no race that has privilege over people of the white race, it's impossible for it to be racist to call a white person a "cracker." It's just impossible, because there's no way for it to be discriminatory. Racism is discrimination on the basis of racial privilege. Not merely on the basis of race.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:36 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:55 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 329 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-21-2012 3:55 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 330 by Rahvin, posted 11-21-2012 3:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 325 of 526 (680888)
11-21-2012 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 3:44 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
So, by craqshfrog's definition of his own usage of the term "racist", black people that make judgements against white people based on their skin color ("don't pick that cracker for the basketball team, he can't play ball cuz he's white") are not racist at all?
Of course it's not racist! That's why Stuff White People Like is a hilarious and critically-acclaimed blog that spun off a best-selling book for whom the authors are now doing a coast-to-coast tour, and "Stuff Black People Like" isn't even something I dare do a Google search for because it would just return a torrent of racist filth.
Again, how do you explain something like that in your "no-privilege" model of racial discrimination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:44 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 4:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 326 of 526 (680889)
11-21-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 2:47 PM


Re: Objectification and rape - Significant problem at atheist/skeptic conferences
Answer the question. Yes or No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 2:47 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 327 of 526 (680890)
11-21-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by hooah212002
11-21-2012 3:29 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
It's not hard to actually find the real definition of a word. We are on the internet, you know
I posted it, a direct quote from dictionary.com, just a bit upthread.
Crash ignored it.
"Debating" with him ceases to be anything meaningful and diverges wholly into his equivocation and semantic games.
Apparently it's just fine to use racist remarks against a "privileged" race. I can agree that racism (or any bigotry) combined with privilege in the form of political power acting upon that bigotry becomes a problem orders of magnitude worse than an individual case could ever be, but that's simply noticing the difference between small-scale and systemic discrimination.
To actually say that racism doesn't exist or that it's less racist (which is different and distinct from saying "less of a problem" or "less bad") when privilege does not exist is nonsense. Racism is the disease; privilege just amplifies its expression and impact.
quote:
racism
   [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Anyone who believes that one race is inherently superior to another or simply hates members of one or more races is a racist. Whether the racist's race actually makes up the "ruling class" or has privilege in a given culture is relevant only to how much of an effect on society that particular racism will have; regardless of the presence or absence of privilege, that belief, all expression of it, and any systemic policy intended to reflect it, is still racist.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by hooah212002, posted 11-21-2012 3:29 PM hooah212002 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 4:10 PM Rahvin has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 328 of 526 (680892)
11-21-2012 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 3:44 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
It's not racist because it's not discriminatory.
Jesus fuck crash. I already told you the two are not synonymous. We just wasted a whole lot of bandwidth.
Didn't you ever wonder why black people can use the n-word amongst themselves but white people can't? It's because white people have racial privilege over black people.
Wow. You live in a white community, don't you? Have you ever seen a black person in real life? That is not why white people typically don't say nigger (I won't say can't because they can). Go say nigger in the presence of a group of black guys and then tell me who has the privilege. The only privilege you'll have is the privilege of getting your ass beat. The same as if a mexican goes into a group of chinese guys and makes slanty eyes and says "ching chong chang".
But you know what? Plenty of white guys Do say nigger around their black friends. Eminem even says it on a number of songs.
And since there's no race that has privilege over people of the white race,
Holy shit crash. Motherfucking WHITE PRIDE!!!! WHITE PRIDE!!!!
Racism is discrimination on the basis of racial privilege. Not merely on the basis of race.
Where I come from, racism is judging someone based on the color of their skin.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:44 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 4:15 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 329 of 526 (680893)
11-21-2012 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 3:44 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
Crash, I am trying to understand your racism position and I am not sure it makes sense. I definitely agree that privilege can create or affect racism, but I do not see how racism can not exist without privilege. I have been reading along through this entire thread and the question I would ask is....
..."A black person is serving tables and refuses to serve the table of a white family that comes into the restaurant.
Is this scenario:
A: Racist because it is relying on solely the color of skin for a person to feel that other individuals are not worth their time?
B: Racist because the white people, who are privileged, expect a black person to serve them (although that was not their intent, their only intent was to eat)
C: Not Racist because denying these privileged white people the right to eat like anyone else doesn't matter because they are already privileged
D: Not Racist because it is each individuals right on who to serve"
Now, I can weed out D for you from my time working in restaurants. The sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" does not (at least at any restaurant I worked at) apply to the server, but rather the business. As I can see it, refusing someone, based solely on skin color, the service you would provide willingly to anyone else is definitely racist and this situation does not fall upon privilege. So, maybe I am reading all of your comments wrong, but it can happen (and in fact, I have seen someone do this and be fired for it). If you could help me understand how on Earth this situation falls under privilege then we can begin to understand one another better.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. -Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. -Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing!
What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. -Robin Williams-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:44 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 4:24 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 330 of 526 (680894)
11-21-2012 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by crashfrog
11-21-2012 3:44 PM


Re: Slogans, Privilege and PoCs
But by definition, it's not racist for a black person to call a white person a "cracker." It's not racist because it's not discriminatory.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
quote:
discriminatory
   [dih-skrim-uh-nuh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA
adjective
1.
characterized by or showing prejudicial treatment, especially as an indication of racial, religious, or sexual bias: discriminatory practices in housing; a discriminatory tax.
2.
discriminative ( defs. 1, 2 )
I'm pretty sure "cracker" denotes a discrimination, a bias, a prejudice, toward Caucasians as opposed to other races. It doesn't have all the historical baggage that comes with other racial terms, it's not associated with any form of oppression, and so it doesn't carry the same sting, but you're not using the word "discriminatory" as defined in the common dictionary.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2012 3:44 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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