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Author Topic:   Is God good?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 31 of 722 (681211)
11-23-2012 6:20 PM


Some good thoughts there guys. I appreciate that.
My own position - I can't describe it in words. This following link might give a small insight into my own walk with God. Obviously it's not something that I can describe.
If there was ever one thing, one last thing I would like to communicate, it would be how this song make me feel when it describes the reality of what God has done in my life.
With all my small words, with all my cleverness, I can't come close to achieving what this song achieves, and How these words inflect my soul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tej3PL61jM&list=FLpxx5Fu...
With the very greatest sincerity, good luck to you all, and God bless you.
michael.

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 32 of 722 (681225)
11-23-2012 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
11-23-2012 2:53 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
Hello Stile.
Would an accident count?
Yes I guess an accident would qualify. In the strictest sense. It would be considered an "evil" act yet not done with evil intent. When we are considering an all knowing God, I'm not really sure that God could justify an accident as a reasonable excuse though.
Personally, I would argue that values we come up with ourselves are more valid than anything pronounced from someone else (even God Himself)... If all God does is provide "orders," how can we tell if God is good or not?
Agreed. Especially if you consider that each civilization and culture around the world has a different take on what God considers to be moral behavior. And I would say that each person has a different opinion as well as to what he/ she feels is God's opinion.
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 11-23-2012 2:53 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 33 of 722 (681267)
11-24-2012 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-23-2012 4:28 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
Phat writes:
I believe in communion. His Spirit being allowed to commune with our spirit. Any decisions are entirely ours...as the responsible party...but His influence helps to shape our decision. My point is that we cant make an informed (or complete) decision without knowing His heart/His conscience. This is what it means to have the mind of Christ.
The problem I personally have with this sort of stuff is that I just see it as meaningless priestly drivel. Made up baby talk. The sort of stuff that just flows out of the pious from the pulpit every Sunday,
It's just gibberish to me, astrology talk - the words are just padding; you can hear the self-indulgence and genuflection in the tone. Ugh, it makes my skin crawl.
(Nothing personal Phat - just seen and heard this kind of bullshit too much.)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-23-2012 4:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 11-24-2012 5:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 722 (681348)
11-24-2012 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tangle
11-24-2012 5:28 AM


Re: Light and Darkness
OK. Are you saying that the whole idea of "His Spirit" seems ridiculous to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2012 5:28 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2012 5:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 36 by jaywill, posted 11-24-2012 10:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 35 of 722 (681349)
11-24-2012 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
11-24-2012 5:08 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
That's a good palce to start, but it's actually the whole 9 yards - the whole made up, feel better gunk.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 11-24-2012 5:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 36 of 722 (681372)
11-24-2012 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
11-24-2012 5:08 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
I believe in communion. His Spirit being allowed to commune with our spirit. Any decisions are entirely ours...as the responsible party...but His influence helps to shape our decision. My point is that we cant make an informed (or complete) decision without knowing His heart/His conscience. This is what it means to have the mind of Christ.
I understand what you are talking about.
Christ is available for experiencing and enjoying.
That's basic to the New Testament.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 34 by Phat, posted 11-24-2012 5:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 37 of 722 (681390)
11-25-2012 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
04-28-2012 6:34 AM


The God of the Bible is good and bad.
Kind of like an abusive spouse: capable of great affection right up untill they put you in hospital.
Fluffy bunny Xians often forget about how much of a supreme cunt their god is described to be.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

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 Message 6 by frako, posted 04-28-2012 6:34 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jaywill, posted 11-25-2012 10:49 PM Larni has replied
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 11-25-2012 11:36 PM Larni has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 38 of 722 (681494)
11-25-2012 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Larni
11-25-2012 11:16 AM


Kind of like an abusive spouse: capable of great affection right up untill they put you in hospital.
Could you give us an example of this from the Bible ?
I expect an example of "great affection" suddenly followed by great injury. What's your example ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 11:16 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Larni, posted 11-27-2012 3:20 PM jaywill has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 722 (681498)
11-25-2012 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Larni
11-25-2012 11:16 AM


Character
Larni writes:
Fluffy bunny Xians often forget about how much of a supreme cunt their god is described to be.
Thing is, we dont limit our God soley to a described character, as if He were merely a character in a book. We tend to have an idea of what type of character He is....of course we could be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 11:16 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 40 of 722 (681512)
11-26-2012 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
11-25-2012 11:36 PM


Re: Character
Thing is, we dont limit our God soley to a described character, as if He were merely a character in a book. We tend to have an idea of what type of character He is....of course we could be wrong.
Hopefully, errors we have about our own character and about God's character are corrected as we grow in spiritual life.
Just as in the natural realm, a growing child comes into deeper realization of their own character and of that of their parents, so in spiritual life. Misunderstandings about the self and about God become adjusted with more maturity.
The Apostle Paul expected to know Christ to a fuller degree in the future of his Christian experience. Two places at least demonstrate this.
" ... I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ ... to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings ..." (See Phil. 3:8,10)
Other things which Paul highly esteemed as being valuable he begins to count as refuse (dog food) or garbage in comparison with knowing Christ. This is a Christ that he knows yet seeks more and more to "gain" - " ... that I may gain Christ".
The gaining of Christ by Paul is the encrease of the depth of his experience of Christ. If he has misconceptions about Christ, his gaining of Christ will remedy these misconceptions. His experience of Christ will expand causing him to GAIN an expanding and deepening apprehension of God and Christ.
So Paul looks away from the past and stretches forward to pursue more of Christ -
"Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before.
I pursue toward the goal for the prize .. Let us therefore, as many as are fullgrown, have this mnd ..." (See vs. 10-15)
I don't think this means Paul despises his previous experience of Christ. I think it means he does not linger in his past successes. He does not rest on any laurels in a sentimantal way. He does not settle on his past good experiences. He forgets them in order to press onward to enjoy more of God, that is a deeper experience of Christ.
This is the "mind" which he encourages Christians to have. In fact he counts it as a hallmark of maturity - to ever be pursuing after more Christ, to ever be stretching forward to gain Christ -
"Let us therefore, as many as are fullgrown, have this mind ..."
Then again Paul says he presently sees things as through a glass mirror obscurely, darkly. But eventually he will know God even as God has always known him -
"For now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at that time face to face; now I know in part, but at that time I will fully know even as also I was fully known." (1 Cor. 13:12)
Knowing God is not a static matter but a matter of spiritual growth, encrease, deepening, expanding, and maturing. It culminates in our knowing God even as He has always known us - with perfect clarity.
This proverb of the Old Testament also brings out the encreasing nature of spiritual life -
"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until the full day." (Proverbs 4:18)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 39 by Phat, posted 11-25-2012 11:36 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 41 of 722 (681516)
11-26-2012 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-23-2012 4:28 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
Phat writes:
I believe in communion. His Spirit being allowed to commune with our spirit. Any decisions are entirely ours...as the responsible party...but His influence helps to shape our decision. My point is that we cant make an informed (or complete) decision without knowing His heart/His conscience. This is what it means to have the mind of Christ.
May very well be true. I don't think so But what I think is what I think, and what you think is what you think.
To me, your words are hollow because they don't really depend on anything.
"My point is that we cant make an informed (or complete) decision without knowing His heart/His conscience."
I can re-word and also say:
"My point is that we cant make an informed (or complete) decision without knowing all the information surrounding a situation."
Your way depends on God, my way doesn't. But neither way actually changes the issues.
We still have problems.
We still have difficult problems.
We still have times when we don't know "the best" course of action.
We still don't know if God is good or not.
...and all these things still occur regardless if we take your position or my position.
Personally, I like my position because I have the possibility of getting "all the information" in a mundane sense (or, maybe, at least someone smarter than me potentially could...). That gives me comfort.
I would guess that you like your position because it contains the possibility of "being guided" by a God which includes a certain "big brother security blanket" kind of comfort.
As well, I personally don't care where you get your comfort from (no offense..)
But I will ask for you to please "not care" about where I get my comfort from as well...
Hmmm... that wasn't meant with an accusatory tone. And not even specifically at you. More of a general "how to deal with other people" kind of plea, that's all.
I also don't remember if I had a focused point for this post. Perhaps it was just a bit of a ramble, and now it is over...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-23-2012 4:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 42 of 722 (681517)
11-26-2012 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by rueh
11-23-2012 7:08 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
rueh writes:
When we are considering an all knowing God, I'm not really sure that God could justify an accident as a reasonable excuse though.
Good point
Sorry, I must have overlooked the context and gotten stuck on the universal claim.
Agreed. Especially if you consider that each civilization and culture around the world has a different take on what God considers to be moral behavior. And I would say that each person has a different opinion as well as to what he/ she feels is God's opinion.
Yes, that certainly adds to it in the world we live in.
I'm even talking about a fictional world as well though. Consider a world where God is prevalent, personal, and approachable. He exists, and is amongst us and there is no confusion at all as to wether or not He is all-powerful, and the creator of all seen and unseen.
Even given all that... I still think that our personal creation of our own values for good/bad would be more important than those pronounced from His Excellency without reasoning that can be agreed upon. (And, if we are agreeing upon reasoning... then it's really our own personal creation that just happens to match the choices of God anyway).

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 722 (681668)
11-27-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Stile
11-26-2012 9:21 AM


Re: Light and Darkness
Stile writes:
I'm even talking about a fictional world as well though. Consider a world where God is prevalent, personal, and approachable. He exists, and is amongst us and there is no confusion at all as to wether or not He is all-powerful, and the creator of all seen and unseen.
Even given all that... I still think that our personal creation of our own values for good/bad would be more important than those pronounced from His Excellency without reasoning that can be agreed upon. (And, if we are agreeing upon reasoning... then it's really our own personal creation that just happens to match the choices of God anyway).
Perhaps our right of final choice ends up being a demand for final choice on our part....and perhaps the reason for conflict between Creator and created stems from the reluctance of the created to give in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 11-26-2012 9:21 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 44 of 722 (681699)
11-27-2012 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
11-27-2012 11:35 AM


Re: Light and Darkness
Phat writes:
Perhaps our right of final choice ends up being a demand for final choice on our part....and perhaps the reason for conflict between Creator and created stems from the reluctance of the created to give in.
Sure. Could be. But it would seem to make God awfully... petty. Are you sure you want to do that to God? If I was God, I might take offense, or at least laugh at you
For me, I don't see an issue about "final choice" or "demand."
I also don't see a conflict about "giving in" to a creator.
I just plain don't think about that sort of power-struggle when thinking about God.
When I think about God, I don't think about some being that wants to control or play a power-game with me. I think about a benevolent, loving being. One that thinks, and cares and is mature.
Such a being would want us to use the brain He gave us to make our own decision.
Such a being would be physically ill from the thought of us simply "giving in" to Him because He's the creator without trying to think about it with the powerful thought-processes He endowed us with.
"Giving in" simply because He is all-powerful is exactly what He wouldn't want.
If He wanted people to "give in," He would have created a bunch of robots with his all-powerfull-ness.
But He didn't. He created thinking, unique, concsious individuals.
I just respect that decision of His enough to actually use my thinking, unique, consciousness in order to judge things to the best of my ability (the same ability that He gave to me).
If a father gives a child an order... do you think the father feels proud if the child complies because the father is "all-powerful" and "knows best?" Or, do you think the father feels proud if the child complies because the child thought about the issue on his own and came to the same conclusion that the order is the right thing to do anyway?
The child isn't demanding anything, and "giving in" would be a less-valued acceptance.
It's really the best case scenario for all beings (Gods and humans) involved.
Of course, this all goes in context:
Stile writes:
I'm even talking about a fictional world...
...where God exists

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 11-27-2012 11:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 45 of 722 (681735)
11-27-2012 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jaywill
11-25-2012 10:49 PM


I expect an example of "great affection" suddenly followed by great injury. What's your example ?
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jaywill, posted 11-25-2012 10:49 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jaywill, posted 11-28-2012 8:54 AM Larni has replied

  
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