Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,742 Year: 3,999/9,624 Month: 870/974 Week: 197/286 Day: 4/109 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   29% of UK teachers favor teaching creationism
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 103 (681455)
11-25-2012 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Theodoric
11-25-2012 5:45 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
It was a very big IF. it was the IF of TRUE CHRISTIAN treatment of the people.
And who equated what with what? What equation did I even make? I think you're hallucinating.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2012 5:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 6:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 103 (681461)
11-25-2012 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by nwr
11-25-2012 6:03 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
I don't know what happened to this post.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by nwr, posted 11-25-2012 6:03 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 103 (681462)
11-25-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by nwr
11-25-2012 6:03 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
What I meant was that IF THERE HAD BEEN A TRUE CHRISTIAN SPIRIT India could conceivably have eventually developed the same kind of relation with the British Crown as Australia and Canada did, having home rule but still having the Queen nominally as their figurehead. Obviously such a Christian spirit did not apply toward the native peoples of either Australia or the Americas, and I wasn't thinking of racial differences at all.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by nwr, posted 11-25-2012 6:03 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 6:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 103 (681463)
11-25-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
11-25-2012 6:08 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
I SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE CONDITION OF INDIA AS A CULTURE. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. IF anything I put them on the level of the WHITE settlers of Canada and Australia by assuming they could eventually have possibly come to a similar relationship with England. I realize the circumstances are different, yes yes yes, but I'm trying to say something about how things COULD HAVE BEEN had the spirit of colonization beeen TRULY CHRISTIAN.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2012 6:08 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2012 6:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 103 (681484)
11-25-2012 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by PaulK
11-25-2012 5:33 PM


Re: What is a creationist?
Yes, I can be rude that way, but even when I'm not, which was the case for long periods of posting at EvC, the level of animosity was no different. I've always been blown away by the level of animosity here, no matter what I say it seems. It's kind of fascinating really.
Sole arbiter? Only if you don't count all the authority I lean on, which is not represented at EvC.
Sorry about Geology, sometimes I just let it all hang out. Sometimes I try to be polite about it, and I do admire the British creationist in that link I posted a couple times now, who is very respectful toward establishment Geology. I suppose he has to be since he's one of them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by PaulK, posted 11-25-2012 5:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 11-26-2012 1:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 103 (681492)
11-25-2012 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by crashfrog
11-25-2012 9:16 PM


Re: What is a creationist?
I haven't said disagreement constitutes animosity. I also haven't said I take the animosity personally. Now I forget where this trend of the conversation started but that's the way communication seems to go. I answer a question, somebody thinks I'm declaring something, I use a word that implies something other than I meant or whatnot, I have to go back and straighten out some kind of strange misreading and on it goes. I've at times lost my temper over things said here but generally I don't think I take any of it PERSONALLY. I'm blown away by the animosity, but that's as much amazement as an amotional reaction. The *moral indignation* level here is astonishing, getting up on one's moral high horse to denounce this that or the other, really quite astonishing. Needless to say I most often don't share the moral standard being applied, but that's another subject. Where DID this topic begin anyway? The animosity bit? I can't remember. I'd go back and reread but I'm SO tired.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 11-25-2012 9:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 11-26-2012 10:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 103 (681507)
11-26-2012 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by GDR
11-26-2012 12:11 AM


Class disctinctions, poverty, materialism, quality of life
GDR, as I understand it, and yes I wish I knew more about the history of it all, the situation in India was not like the situation in Australia or Canada. Yes the Brits were no doubt "snobs and racists" as I already said, but India was an ancient established culture with a huge population, which I believe can't be compared with the natives of Canada or Australia -- or the US where we also have Reservations for the native population. The difference I have in mind is that the British didn't move into India to settle as was the case in Canada and Australia. Some did but as administrators, not settlers.
What I was trying to say, and maybe I AM off the wall about this, certainly unrealistic at least, was that a TRUE Christian spirit could have done GOOD for India rather than just exploiting their wealth, you know a spirit of SERVICE, of selfless HELP, and so on, could have done MORE than they did to bring the gospel (yes, that's essential) to build education of all kinds, to encourage enterprise and employ people of all classes in producing their own wealth, and all the rest that brings people into the modern age, so that eventually they could have been self governing the way Australia and Canada are. That's probably MOSTLY unrealistic not only because of British class barriers but INDIAN class barriers which are arguably worse than ever was the case even in England.
A Christian outlook, especially if the gospel WAS taught, would have worked toward getting rid of both sets of class distinctions. Yes, I'm sure it's pie in the sky but that's what I meant about a CHRISTIAN spirit, which is not a spirit of exploitation but more of a spirit of help. Of course it would have to have been built on the commercial interests of Britain nevertheless, but business doesn't have to be merely exploitative. Granny said he's sure all the Brits THOUGHT of themselves as Christians, but I WAS talking about a nonexploitative mission to be a blessing to India.
From what little I know the country is not MUCH better off economically OR socially now if at all. Are you familiar with the book City of Joy about the slums of Calcutta? I mentioned earlier the ministry to the Dalits I'm aware of, how the people in that region are the poorest of the poor by western standards. The indigenous ministers who are based in a much bigger organization called Gospel for Asia also get around either on foot or bicycle. Still the Dalits may be better off than those in the city slums, or who live on the city streets -- from which Mother Teresa took the dying into her hospitals (I'm no particular fan of Mother Teresa but she did make an effort to help the really sick and dying). The hordes of children who beg foreigners for money are reported on by visitors to India all the time.
It's hard to call all that any kind of economic improvement OR social improvement.
Oh I agree in theory about "quality of life" versus materialism but you know, the fact of the matter is that people who get material improvements in their lives themselves say they prefer it to their previous condition. It's hard to have "quality of life" without an education, living from hand to mouth, every year getting flooded out by the monsoons, and so on.
By the way, I have English ancestry too. MY grandfather, whom I never knew (because my father was the youngest of thirteen and by the time he married my mother at forty my grandfather had died), emigrated to Canada from London and homesteaded in Alberta. We visited that old ranch every summer for years, where one of my aunts lived, and the life was just as it had always been. The only nod to modernity was the wooden boxed wall phone that you cranked to get the Operator. There was a wood cook stove in the kitchen, the only source of heat for the small two story house, light was from hanging kerosene lamps and water had to be carried from the well on the hill in buckets. Of course the "plumbing" was an outhouse and porcelain chamber pots under the beds. You washed in a large bowl in the bedroom with water heated on the wood stove and lugged to each of the bedrooms in a large porcelain pitcher.
We helped my aunt milk the cows, gathered eggs from the hens, watched her kill chickens for dinner and tried to help her pluck them -- plucking chickens is NOT easy. And she let us help her make bread. Oh and she made butter in a big metal bowl that spun very fast when you cranked it. She actually had developed the muscles between the joints of every one of her fingers from the work she did to keep that place running.
It was great fun for a summer vacation. But what a hard life! All the other old aunts and uncles talked about how GLAD they were for modern conveniences after they'd grown up and moved away. You know, MATERIALISM. Don't put it down, it has a LOT to do with "quality of life."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by GDR, posted 11-26-2012 12:11 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by nwr, posted 11-26-2012 9:06 AM Faith has replied
 Message 86 by Granny Magda, posted 11-26-2012 2:08 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 87 by GDR, posted 11-26-2012 3:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 103 (681514)
11-26-2012 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
11-09-2008 8:27 PM


Back to Creationism in the UK
I decided to look it up and found this information about a creationist organization in the UK, which contains links to other organizations:
Biblical Creation Society
The Biblical Creation Society (BCS) is a United Kingdom-based creationist organisation founded in 1977 by Scottish minister Nigel M. de S. Cameron and a group of evangelical students, who were concerned about the popularity of theistic evolution among conservative Christians, but were repelled by the "wholly negative" attitude of the Evolution Protest Movement. Although inspired by the scientific creationism of John C. Whitcomb and Henry M. Morris (authors of The Genesis Flood), it refused to limit its membership to only Young Earth creationists, and in its name rejected American attempts to separate scientific creationism from its Biblical roots (a separation rendered unnecessary by the lack of constitutional barriers to teaching creationism in the United Kingdom).[1] The organisation is based in Rugby, Warwickshire.
I'm not entirely sure what this paragraph is saying (in whose name rejected what?) but I gather at least that their beliefs are disputed by other creationist organizations.
Here's another UK based organization called Biblical Creation Ministries which the site explains is an offshoot of the organization above. This one is headed up by Paul Garner, whose talk on the Grand Canyon I've linked a couple times here.
It's so good I think I'll link it again too
Their Statement of Faith is one I can wholeheartedly agree with. Maybe I'll disagree with some points as I explore the site, but at the moment it looks to me like Creationism is alive and well in the UK.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 11-09-2008 8:27 PM onifre has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 103 (681524)
11-26-2012 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by nwr
11-26-2012 9:06 AM


Re: Class distinctions, poverty, materialism, quality of life
Right, the British were exactly the same as, oh, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Hitler, and all the other conquerors of other peoples. Nothing but looting and pillaging, raping and murdering. Right.
and Stalin and Pol Pot and the Turks
Hey, by saying it would have been better if they'd had a spirit of service aren't I agreeing with you that they wrongly exploited the native people? But I'm not going to agree with the weird denunciations that try to equate their empire-building with the viciousness of all-out bloody looters and pillagers, which HAVE existed in history.
You guys lack a sense of proportion in your neverending sanctimonious pronouncements of Moral Indignation. Good grief, humanity isn't perfect, what makes you think you're above the fallen human beings who preceded you?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by nwr, posted 11-26-2012 9:06 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by vimesey, posted 11-26-2012 10:17 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-26-2012 12:21 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 84 by nwr, posted 11-26-2012 12:30 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 11-26-2012 12:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024