Summations Only

Crash, I am trying to understand your racism position and I am not sure it makes sense. I definitely agree that privilege can create or affect racism, but I do not see how racism can not exist without privilege. I have been reading along through this entire thread and the question I would ask is......."A black person is serving tables and refuses to serve the table of a white family that comes into the restaurant.Is this scenario:
A: Racist because it is relying on solely the color of skin for a person to feel that other individuals are not worth their time?
B: Racist because the white people, who are privileged, expect a black person to serve them (although that was not their intent, their only intent was to eat)
C: Not Racist because denying these privileged white people the right to eat like anyone else doesn't matter because they are already privileged
D: Not Racist because it is each individuals right on who to serve"Now, I can weed out D for you from my time working in restaurants. The sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" does not (at least at any restaurant I worked at) apply to the server, but rather the business. As I can see it, refusing someone, based solely on skin color, the service you would provide willingly to anyone else is definitely racist and this situation does not fall upon privilege. So, maybe I am reading all of your comments wrong, but it can happen (and in fact, I have seen someone do this and be fired for it). If you could help me understand how on Earth this situation falls under privilege then we can begin to understand one another better.

Because you are basically discussing discrimination and not racism. I would agree with you that discrimination does hinge upon the privilege of the individuals involved, but not that racism does. I have seen plenty of examples of racism from all walks of life in my time on this Earth and for you to ask me to deny that is ridiculous. There is racism in this scenario against the white people. Sure they will get served by someone, but they are forced to wait while other individuals in the restaurant are served simply based on one individual's viewpoint of their race.Yes, the black guy will get fired, and he will fired for being racist and refusing service based solely on skin color. I'm sorry, but for judging individual's based solely on skin color, one deserves to get fired. There was nothing in this scenario that said that the black person was not able to go out other nights, and was simply an employee who should be willing to do his job to the best of his ability. He is therefore not dis-privileged by having to work, in fact, let me see how far claiming to my job that they are discriminating against me because I am class dis-privileged gets me. For an example of racism, I will admit that while I served tables I really wanted to not serve tables with individuals who had tattoos such as a swastika or white power symbols. However, as my job it is my duty to do so to the best of my ability and I never once tried to refuse someone. I do not consider myself class dis-privileged by doing my job. Rather, I consider myself somewhat class privileged by having a job. Right, and it is racism that they were forced to wait longer because someone did not like their skin color. I do not see the privilege because there is none to be seen. These are simply individuals who want a bite to eat. We all like to go out to eat occasionally. The individual in question had no knowledge of these people other than skin color. He did not talk to them, he did not acknowledge them, he simply refused based solely on skin color. I think that this idea that there is no such thing as reverse racism is completely false.Here is another example, when I first began working in a restaurant, a girl (according to you sex dis-privileged) walked up to me on my first day and grabbed my crotch. She was a fellow server, completely a peer. We were both white, we both worked in the same job, and we both came from similar upbringings. According to your ridiculous theory, this was not sexual harrassment because she has one more dis-privilege than I have.Another example:
A white person walks into a hispanic neighborhood and is shot and killed simply for being in an area when he is white. (before you go off on a tangent claiming I am saying all hispanics are violent, don't. I do not think all hispanics are violent, I am merely using a race that you would claim is dis-privileged). According to your thesis, this is not a hate crime, this is not racism. And yet, if the opposite happened and a white man killed a hispanic for being in his neighborhood (We'll say Southy) than it is racist?The problem with your ideas is that you are simply painting with a far too broad of brush. Not all whites are privileged by being white (sorry, but there is a lot more equality happening now, whether you see it or not is your own cognitive dissonance). Not to say that we have achieved complete equality, but the improvements have definitely been noticeable. Not all blacks are dis-privileged by being black. We no longer live in a world that can be painted with the brush of races against races, and this focusing on privilege instead of the true underlying cause (racism and hating someone simply for being a different color) is not going to benefit us as we try to abolish racism, sexism, or any other negative ism.Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

After the 500+ messages in this thread, I do not think that I have changed my position on any segment of the topic at all. I do not agree with the classification of Elevator Guy's behavior as sexism, rather I think it was an honest mistake (one does not proposition someone in front of the entire group, but rather waits until there is some privacy) perpetrated by someone who may be slightly socially awkward. I think the backlash that Rebecca Watson received was far and away the only real problem that came from the entire incident.Also, as a person who has always been clumsy with women and trying to ask them out, I can understand how a simple, honest mistake could be misconstrued and I feel that RW and Elevator Guy could have actually had a pleasant experience had she said no and he simply walked away....no need to increase the focus on a failed pick-up attempt.Onto the fun arguments.....I think that we are talking about two completely different definitions. After reading through this whole thread, I think I can see the benefit to the privilege system when it comes to acts of discrimination. Legislation and corporate policy should not be written simply to protect the white race more than the racial privilege accrued through time allows them. Legisalation and policy should be brought up to date to the point where those races and genders that are less privileged are able to share in equal privilege as the white race. However, I only agree with this idea in the sense of discrimination.When it comes to racism, I think that any definition that allows individuals to treat others differently simply based on race or sex should not be used because it will only cause problems. Example of these very things were brought up throughout this thread, including examples by Omni of being sexually harrassed, of me being sexually harrassed, and of the african american refusing to serve a table of white people, because he did not like white people. The problem with Crash's definition is that it is similar to reparations in a sociology way. The problem with ideas like this is that we will always come to the point of "where does it stop"? I can utilize ways that I am less privileged and attack those who are privileged in that way just the same as any one else. This definition will lead us to everyone trying to find the ways that they are marginalized and treating others in a negative aspect. Why? Because they can, those people are privileged.I think that any definition of racism that says people are allowed to be racist should be thrown out, and sadly Crash's definition (or sociology's, if you will) allows this. It is important that we work together to remove all instances of racism, whether they attack blacks, whites, mexicans, or anyone else. We need to stop worrying about privilege and begin worrying about simply treating people well.Racism does not require privilege, it requires TREATING someone differently based solely on race and can occur whether or not the race is privileged over another. Sexism does not require privilege, it simply requires TREATING someone differently based solely on gender and can occur in all directions. Stop accepting it hateful actions simply because of hateful actions that were done in the past. If our species continues to hold current generations accountable for that which happened historically, then A. Everyone is equally privileged (All races held authority at some time or another, in some place on the Earth, thus are privileged) or B. No one has privilege because all races and genders have received marginalized treatment at some time or another in the history of this species.