Is God good?

This is what I never understand. Christians seem to make up the character of God, even when it contradicts the Bible.

Some Christians do seem to make up their own ideas about God, and the "fluffy bunny" trend is certainly one of those. However, what you think contradicts God's character in the Bible is probably just YOUR made-up idea about God.Here's a very thorough investigation into God's character based on what the Bible shows about Him, in an online book titled The Attributes of God by A W Pink, a British Reformed writer of the early 20th C.In his chapter on God's Love he could be said to be criticizing what you call "fluffy bunny" Christianity:

Again I don't understand. I'm in no way interpreting the Bible in any way other than literally.When Lev 20:13 says gay men should be killed that is exactly what it means. I don't see how we can redefine the literal message of the Bible because some guy thinks it should be redefined to fit so called modern values.

Do the laws of one state or one society or one culture apply to other states, societies or cultures?

I'm comming at this from a literalist point of view that I believe mirrors Faith's.She has said many times in geology threads that when science contradicts the Bible she goes with the Bible as authoritive.I haven't forgotten our recent discourse.

But we AREN'T interpreting the Bible "to fit modern values," we're interpreting it according to scripture itself, according to the New Testament, which is the key to the Old.A "wooden-headed literalist" gets everything wrong about the Bible.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But by definition if you do not take the Bible as a literal record inspired (to be accurate) by God then you are being biased in stating what you think the Bible means.Do you or do you not think that by being in the (god) inspired Bible Lev 20:13 means that gay men should be killed? If not, what Biblical reason do you have to not think that way?

Don't you think it strange that the Word of God has to be interpreted at all?It seems to me that your interpretation may be unique to you. After all there are some 30,000 Christian sects all believing something slightly different. And all the Christian religions throughout the ages believed different things at different times all based on this very same Word.Why wouldn't your God have made his Word inviable? Why send it to us in such a garbled and contradictory way that it was bound to cause death and violence between believers throughout it's life?And who gets to decide who's a wooden-headed literalist and who's a correct literalist? You have told us over and over that the bible is literally true and where science has shown it not to be - as in the age of the earth and dates of floods etc - then science is wrong and the book is right.Seems to me you want i both ways and you, not the book, is the deciding factor.

You insist on reading the Old Testament the way it was written for Israel and ignoring the fact that the New Covenant changed how we relate to the Old, and this is standard orthodox teaching about the Bible, not something I'm making up. The food laws were rescinded in the New Testament, for instance, and yet people here will insist we should still shun the foods God prohibited to Israel, and in that atmosphere of aggressive ignorance I tend to avoid discussions of the subject.And by the way, A W Pink's Attributes of God is regarded as a classic, he's not just "some guy."HOWEVER, I was thinking about the fact that we used to have sodomy laws in this country, skimmed through the Wikipedia article on the subject and realize I've been overlooking how seriously it used to be regarded as a crime. Even punishable by death in Virginia in Thomas Jefferson's day -- he tried to change the punishment to castration instead. Other states held it to be a felony punishable by imprisonment and hard labor until quite recently.Sodomy laws in the United States - WikipediaI think I'm going to have to rethink some of this as one of the many many ways we've been falling away from God and bringing judgment on our nation. I suspect the same trend is true in the UK as well.

Believers who have an appreciation of the infinities of God expect to be plumbing the depths of His word for all eternity. That's an utterly ridiculous number. The differences are minuscule among Bible-believing denominations, and we all recognize each other as Bible believers despite minor differences. That number probably includes groups we DON'T recognize, since what would you care what it includes? Pascal said something to the effect that the Bible contains enough light to guide believers and enough obscurity to thwart the profane inquiries of unbelievers. There's nothing garbled and contradictory about it to a believer.It certainly wasn't the Bible that caused the violence, it was the Roman Church whose doctrines are predominantly man-made rather than Bible based, which the Protestant Reformers came to recognize as not Christian at all but the seat of the Antichrist which had been persecuting, torturing and murdering true Bible believers for at least a thousand years. The Reformers had all been Catholics themselves, most of them priests. They also recognized dissenting groups that had existed outside the Roman Church all the way back to apostolic times as true Bible believers that had been slandered by Rome and murdered for "heresy" such as the Paulicians, the Waldensians and the Albigensians. I avoid the word "literal" because it is so easily misused. Regarding the Bible as inerrant and accurate doesn't require reading it as literally literal. I follow Reformed theology which is shared by many denominations these days and they can tell you what a wooden-headed literalist is, usually someone who doesn't recognize that the New Testament is the standard for interpreting the Old. Yes I read the first eleven Chapters of Genesis as straight history. Seems to me you don't know what you are talking about.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

We used to have slavery laws in this country, too. With death penalties for runaways. With a fine for wilful killing of a slave, just like in the Bible. I think doing away with those laws is what has pissed your God off, not gay sex.

I assume Larni, that this is your best example of great love followed by great injury so as to depict God as a perverted spouse. That is you say this verse shows God suddenly cutting off His great love from people and turning to injurious hatred at a whim. My Recovery Version translates this passage as: 1.) If this verse read "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved [and he who does not believe shall ALSO be saved]" then that would not show a love of God that is pure or righteous.To be saved is to be conformed to the image of Christ so that in eternity God secures myriads of forgiven human beings who have gone through a life process in which they fully reflect the character of Jesus. "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29) . In a world in which Jesus Christ, the First Eldest Brother and billions of the saved are the many brothers conformed to be like Him, it would be no love to eternally mix into their number myriads who have refused to be saved.It would be no love for the sons of God, the brothers of Christ the Firstborn brother to forever have to put up with God haters, God rejectors, revolting rebels whose disadain for the Ultimate moral Governor of all creation and who are unredeemably contrarian. Those unbelievers are loved by God but have self chosen to carry their enmity against the willing Savior perpetually.So "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved ..."[but he who does NOT believe shall ALSO be saved] does not reveal a righteous love. The sons of God would be ever among those fermenting rebellion against God.2.) If it read "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, [but he who does not believe will be left alone or made to exist no more] " some may think would show love and eliminate injury.But the Gospel reveals that God Himself became a man. And in His triune nature and as a man received the judgement upon sins for the whole world, into Himself. What is beyond God? What transcends God? What higher referee or court of appeal could there be above and beyond God?God is the ultimate authority. In being incarnated as a man and undergoing not just the death of Roman crucifixion but the unknown horror of carrying up the world's sins under the divine judgment of God, He has gone SO FAR, to the uttermost, that the sinners may be saved.God only commands that we believe into this resurrected and available Person, accepting full identification with Him. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved ...".We are not qualified to prescribe what the penalty should be for the enormity of the offense of a rejecting unbelief. This is the Savior God commanding that we believe Christ is Lord.If we convened a conference of all the rapists in the world and asked them to decide what the penalty should be for rape, perhaps they would vote that there should be no penalty. Or perhaps they would vote that there should be a light penalty. They have a vested interest in being lenient upon themselves for they feel to rape is not a bad thing.Neither the believers or the unbelievers are ultimately qualified to assign what is the righteous penalty that rejecting the Godman Savior should be.If it is to become non-existence then the rejector of God has won. For he has escaped forever punishment. What does not exist cannot be punished.But it is God's responsibility as the ultimate Governor beyond which, above which, trancendent to, aside from, and other than there is NO final setting of things right, to warn that we cannot rebel against Him and win forever.If there was a super God beyond the God of Mark's gospel, to whom we could appeal, why could we not also reject the remedies of that one as well? The cosmic buck has to stop somewhere. And man's capacity in his freedom to reject ulitimate authority and ultimate love for that matter, knows no end.One might argue that a God of love would cause the unreconciled unbeliever to exist no more so that he could not be injured in punishment. But God's governemnt is that the rejector must lose. And it is love for the ultimate Governor to inform His creation that the sinner cannot forever be in revolt against God and win. The perpetual rebel must lose wellbeing forever. The Source of universal wellbeing is eternal. The rejection of the Source leads to an everlasting lost of the issue of wellbeing.3.) The objector to Mark 16:16 may envision of love without righteousness. He may think that God should give up His eternal rigthteous character and just be the ultimate permissivist allowing anything to be done.But the Bible in its plenary message show how God coordinates His great love along with His great righteousness. He does not give up one for the other. He does not decide He will condemn everyone with no love, with no loving offer to be reconciled. Nor does He give up His great righteousness and FORCE a relationship forever on those who want no relationship with Him.The eternal punishment was created for the Devil and his angels (Matt.25:41). And the unreconciled rebel goes with his leader the Devil to share with the Devil his miserable destiny - "Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." The believer comes in to share Christ's glorious destiny - "Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24) We go with whoever we have chosen to be our leader. God may love the rejecting rebel mightly. But if he has chosen that his leader is the one who embodies ultimate rejection of God, the devil and his opposition party, then he will share that one's destiny.If we believe that Christ is here for our gracious salvation we will not only share His glorious destiny as the reigning Godman in God's kingdom over the universe, but we shall be co-sons of God conformed to His image - blameless and without moral spot of imperfection (no foriegn element of sin) before the ultimate holiness of a righteous Father God.I don't think Mark 16:16 shows God as the fickle unastable spouse of your caricature.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

When you say 'pure and righteous' I start to think that you are redefining 'love' to fit the actions of your god. This is conditional love: your god is saying 'I will love you if you do exactly what I want. Otherwise I will go out of my way to punish you'. So your god's motivation is not to be 'pure and righteous' but a form of spiritual apartied. So rather than send all these people to 'Number 2, Heaven' where the canapes are slightly less fresh, your god (in his mercy and love) renders them into immortal bodies to be tortured for all eternity.Love? Or spite for rejecting him? Why not just let the visciously evil people who reject your god be permenently dead? But no. You god must have his misery. That is not righteous. That is your god's over reaction and lust for solving every problem with threats and violence. And the bible shows this quite well, no matter how you twist your god's inspired words. So you beleive the bible when it says you need to be saved but not when it tells you to kill gay men?That's so irrational.

My Bible does not have Leviticus as its last word. In the progressive revelation of God and His salvation, Leviticus is a book on the road, on the way to fully reveal God's eternal purpose and salvation.You may have noticed in the New Testament book of Matthew, you have this scheme repeated a number of times by Jesus in the "sermon on the mount" - "You have heard that it was said to the ancients ... But I say to you ..." I did not stop my reading with the book of Joshua or Leviticus. I went on to read of Jesus Christ enacting the new covenant in His blood for the forgiveness of sins and for the indwelling of His life and nature into those born anew. As I read Leviticus I also see other remedies prescribed by God to Moses. There was the sin offering. There was the trespass offering. There was the consecration offering. While the penalty for blasphemy or homosexual acts was harsh I have to consider the accompanying other atoning offerings which chould be presented to the priests.These Levitical penalty laws were for the theocracy of nation Israel specifically. I see no passage excluding the man aware of his tendency to seriously sin against God from offering one of the atoning sacrifices - "Then Moses said to Aaron, Come near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make expiation for yourself and for the people; and make offering of the people and make expiation for them; just as Jehovah commanded you." (Lev. 8:7) While some penalties are harsh, in the whole scheme the system of atoning offerings, it is not as if God leaves no way out for the sinner who humbles himself to repent.God portrays His attitude towards certain serious trangressions while also providing a way of atonement for the repentant.And this is even before we get to the great and final antitype and fulfillment of ALL the offerings - the Son of God within whom all manner of sins are paid for upon His cross on the sinner's behalf.Balance your reading of Leviticus with some reading of the Gospel of Luke or John in the New Testament. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You are contradicting the bible.Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.Psalm 100:5 For the LORD is good, his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generationsPsalm 117:2 For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD endureth for ever. Praise ye the LORD.Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.2nd Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."You are not allowed to rewrite the Bible to fit with your individual notion of what it really says. it says so in the Bible, for God's sakeI don't get how you can ignore what the bible actually saysEdited by Larni, : No reason given.