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Author Topic:   Is God good?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 136 of 722 (682775)
12-05-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Larni
12-05-2012 10:31 AM


Re: Character
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Truth is not defined by man but by the God of the bible and the only way we can be informed of this Truth is via the bible.
Truth is the "son-of-God."
Truth is an ideal which men hope they can image inside their mind.
It is this image that defines and reveals God as the almighty entity of the Reality man must adapt and obey.
Hence, the father of Truth is the real world men interact within, which claims, "I am."
Reality insists that reality is, it does exist and is the same fir all men.
Only by making an image of Reality, and acting in accord with that Truth can men be saved from the consequences of not obeying the father of all nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Larni, posted 12-05-2012 10:31 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 12-05-2012 11:47 AM kofh2u has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 137 of 722 (682780)
12-05-2012 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by kofh2u
12-05-2012 11:25 AM


Re: Character
Hence, the father of Truth is the real world men interact within, which claims, "I am."
Not so.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus it the Truth. Not the 'real world'.
Call yourself a Christian?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by kofh2u, posted 12-05-2012 11:25 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by kofh2u, posted 12-05-2012 12:40 PM Larni has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 138 of 722 (682792)
12-05-2012 12:35 PM


Enough blame and salvation to go around
Larni:
I can see your point. But what you seem to be doing (addressed below) is implying that when God does something awful (such as the Fluod) that he is actually doing good and that he is doing good because anything he does is by definition good.
That is special pleading.
The Bible tells me that righteousness and justice are the foundation of God's throne (Psalm 89:14) . I believe that God's authority to govern the universe, to administrate all things would collapse if God is not righteous.
Of all men who have lived who could conceivably qualify for that task of correcting the Almighty, no one, I think, exceeds Jesus Christ. Jesus refers to this God as His "Righteous Father".
The few other options to me are less believable:
1. The Bible lies and God did not do those things recorded.
2. And incompetent God is in need of the education of His own creatures.
3. Jesus was so absolute towards His Father's will knowing that the Father was imperfect.
4. The Bible lies concerning Christ's absoluteness to the Father.
A fuller picture? How is this not qualifiying the bible based on your interpretation of what the bible means? As far as I can see if God says to kills gays they should be killed (from a loving Christian perspective).
As I read it these OTHER sinful acts are also make us sinners "worthy of death" (Rom. 1:32) -
" ... covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, slanderers, hateful to God, insolent arrogant, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, sensless, faithless, affectionless, merciless; Who, though fully knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight in those who practice them." (See Romans 1:28-32)
I don't get the impression that many of us are not worthy of death similarly. Did you get that? Those who practice such things, according to the righteous judgment of God, are worthy of death.
Men who lie with men or women who lie with women should not feel particularly singled out over many OTHER transgressions which the Bible says make one worthy of death.
My greater concentration goes to the issue of what the Savior God has done that we might be saved and reconciled to Him.
If someone like in the fringe cult the Westfield Baptist Church comes yelling at you that "God hates fags!" point out to them this list of other sins His righteous judgment deems make's one "worthy of death" as well.
Now when we come to the case of Sodom and Gamorrah in Genesis, we should notice their pronounced unthankfulness towards God there. He had previously sent Abraham to FREE them from mass kidnapping in Genesis 14.
"And in the days of Amraphal the kind of Shinar, Arioch ... Chedorlaomer ... Tidal ... thesee kings made war with Bera the king of Sodom and with Birsha the king of Gomorrah ..." (14:1,2) The people of Sodom served Chedorlaomer twelve years lost a battle of revolt. All of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and their food were stolen away.
The patriarch Abraham, the prophet of God, risked his life to rescue them with his own servants. He did it not for any reward at all. He did it because his nephew Lot was among the captives and it was the right thing to do. Abraham slaughtered the kidnappers of the Sodomites (Gen. 14:17). He was BLESSED and not scolded by Melchizedek the priest of God Most High (Genesis 14:18)
"And he [Melchizedek] blessed him [Abram] and said, Blessed be Abram of God the Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God the Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." (v.19)
The king of Sodom offered a material reward that the patriarch Abraham refused (vs. 21,22). Only necessary food for his soldiers he requested. So while we are upset that latter God rains fire on Sodom and Gamorrah, let's also notice that God saved them previously and slaughtered those who had kidnapped them.
It could be that the cry of rebellion of the homosexual mobs in Sodom was the unthankful response to this divine kindness which contributed to the harshness of God's judgment of them latter -
And Jeohvah said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, how great it is, and their sin, how very heavy it is! I shall go down and see whether they have done altogether according to its outcry, which has come to me; and if not, I will know. And the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before Jehovah." (Genesis 18:20-22)
God has previously shown unusual divine kindness and deliverance to the people of Sodom and Gamorrah. The rememberance of this kindness is requited by an outcry of disregard for nature and nature's God. This outcry is like the shaking of their fist in God's face - "We want what we want what we want - PERIOD! And no God is going to interfere."
The harshness of the judgment of chapter 19 may have as its backround the knowledge of God that the people SHOULD have had.
Evil men had been slaughtered who had attacked their society in chapter 14. This was no way to return apprecation to God.
So they suffered a severe lesson.
In that judgment Abraham challenges God as the Righeous Judge of all the earth that, surely He will not slay any nonworthy men mistakenly with the guilty - (Genesis 18:23-33).
It is on the bases of this early debate between God and His prophet that I have ground to believe that in judging God always knows EXACTLY what He is doing. There is no error. There is no oversight. His total command over creation - even maintaining the size, speed, characteristics of the tiniest subatomic atomic particles encourages me that His knowledge is infallible.
There is another issue. Why cannot the men of Sodom who sought to rape men plead that they have only been created to have such a lust ? Well, on the same grounds I might absolve myself from being "worthy of death" for saying -
"But God created me a whisperer."
"But God created me a slanderer."
"But God created me one disobedient to my parents."
"But God created me covetous, or a murderer, or full of envy."
"But God created me insolent, arrogant, or sensless, or full of malignity."
There are many many things in the fallen Adamic nature which are as seeds in our being.
This may come out or the other.
This lust may ferment and manifest itself or another may grow and bear fruit.
In the fallen nature we were constituted in at the disobedience of Adam are many things we were "born" with.
He has not left us with no hope of being stuck with what we were born plagued with.
What He has let happen in Adam's failure - polluting all men, Christ, in a reflexive manner has come to undo and constitute us righteous. This is why Christ is called "the second man" and "the last Adam".
You may read about this in Romans chapter 5 which includes this passage:
"For if by the offense of the one death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
So then as it was through one offense unto condemantion to all men, so also it was through one righteous act unto justification of life to all men." (Rom. 5:18,19)
The same principle that worked against us, God in His goodness causes to work for us.
"For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were CONSTITUTED sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous." (Rom. 5:19)
The Gospel arrives with this truth. As we were constituted with all manner of unrighteous tendencies by the fall of Adam we may now become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4) through Christ the second man, the last Adam. He concludes the damage inflicted upon us through Adam. And He became a divine life supplying Spirit constituting us sons of God and proper human beings - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Having members of my immediate family who are in the gay lifestyle, I am not unsensative to them. In Christ I love them.
And I also know some who have partaken of the regeneration through Christ and the divine nature of the new birth for deliverance from homosexual lust as well as other lusts.
Did you notice that God expresses His hatred for DIVORCE as well ?
" For I hate divorce, saus Jehovah the God of Israel; and he who does it behaves in violence, says Jehovah of hosts. Take heed then to your spirit, and do not be treacherous." (Malachi 2:16)
Isn't there enough blame to go around to practically everyone ?
God says He hates DIVORCE. And the Romans passage said that the unfaithful were worthy of death.
So while these issues can become heated, as indicated by your emotional ad homs hurled at God, I like to carefully consider the fuller perspective. And especially the love of Christ the Savior for all sinners and His going to the cross for their redemption no matter what they (rather WE) have done.
Once again homosexual acts are listed along with and not above other acts which will exclude someone from participation in the kingdom of God. I do not regard these passages as saying such cannot be saved. I regard them as indicating before one can participate in the coming millennial kingdom of God, sanctification must have done its work to transform one into more Christ likeness.
Ie. [color=orange] "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.
And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:9-11)
I do not read here special condemnation of homosexuals over "unrighteous ... fornicators ... adulterers ... unrighteous ... thieves ... drunkards .... etc. etc." So if the gay man thinks the Bible is picking on him, I would inform him that the thief, the fornicator, the envious, the idolator, the reviler has cause to feel just as picked on as well.
But all may be justified in Christ and all may be sanctified in the Holy Spirit for the kingdom of God.
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Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2012 12:42 PM jaywill has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 139 of 722 (682793)
12-05-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Larni
12-05-2012 11:47 AM


Re: Character
Jesus it the Truth. Not the 'real world'.
Exactly.
The REAL world is not the one men have manufactured with the misconceptions, erroneous perceptions of Reality, or intentional lies.
The REAL world is the one God created and within which all life must co-exist with that Reality.
That real world is the one that threatens extinction to all species who will not adapt to His ways.
Christ is the WAY by which to properly and safely and effective adapt to Reality.
Christ is the light of the Truth into that REAL world which men must see and enter if they are to survive extinction as in the days of Noah, when most did not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 12-05-2012 11:47 AM Larni has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 140 of 722 (682794)
12-05-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jaywill
12-05-2012 12:35 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
As I read it these OTHER sinful acts are also "worthy of death" (Rom. 1:32) -
" ... covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, swtrife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, slanderers, hateful to God, insolent arrogant, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, sensless, faithless, affectionless, merciless; Who, though fully knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who proactice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight in those who practice them." (See Romans 1:28-32)
See, that right there is the problem.
"Whispering," "hating God," "boasting," none of the things in that list are worthy of death.
That's why we don;t execute people who do those things. That's why, if you slit the throat of a disobedient child or an "insolent arrogant boaster," we'd call you an evil murderer.
You're simply engaged in special pleading and blaming the victim.
Your deity is reprehensibly evil. No amount of appealing to the Bible is going to change it. No amount of blaming the victim will help your argument.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 12:35 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by kofh2u, posted 12-05-2012 1:10 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 1:29 PM Rahvin has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 141 of 722 (682804)
12-05-2012 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Rahvin
12-05-2012 12:42 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
[qs] "Whispering," "hating God," "boasting," none of the things in that list are worthy of death.
[/qds]
Paul means the death of our species as in the days of Noah.
He is sayingthat unless men learn to love one another, and work for the mutual self interest of mankind, the harch Reality of War, A-Bombs, radiation, etc will drive us to extinction.
He is saying that the worst enemy of man is man.
And, the proof is that greed and ignorance and self interest has driven other species to the same brink awaiting us:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2012 12:42 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 142 of 722 (682810)
12-05-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Rahvin
12-05-2012 12:42 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
See, that right there is the problem.
"Whispering," "hating God," "boasting," none of the things in that list are worthy of death.
We arrived in this universe and God informed us of His judgment upon these things. The last judgment is His. It is not mine. It is not yours.
I understand your objection. I agree on one level. On another level I think we under estimate what PERFECT ... PERFECT means. Behind the created universe is one who is absolutely RIGHT. The Bible says that the judgment of God is according to truth.
The judgment of God is according to truth (Rom. 2:2)
Now if there were no way of condemnation from that which is eternally and unlimitedly RIGHT then that would be a hellish nightmare. But God HAS provided a salvation.
I am not going to wait for God to give up His rightness. He seems that He will not give it up for anyone or anything. He simply will not go back on what is the perfect will of God.
So I look to the gracious, extensive, all inclusive salvation. God can look upon me as if I had never sinned, as if my total history is simply Christ. And with Christ He is alone completely satisfied.
That's why we don;t execute people who do those things. That's why, if you slit the throat of a disobedient child or an "insolent arrogant boaster," we'd call you an evil murderer.
We also do not execute the final judgment upon all beings.
I agree that even the Mosiac law did not prescribe death for every and all transgressions. But at the same time God said the sinner is worthy of death, if not to be slain on the spot.
In short what I am dealing with is a God before whom, if I have one sin unforgiven, unatoned for, I am in trouble before His eternal perfection.
Now here's the good news. The Substitute, the Propitiation for my sins is Perfect. Since He is perfection before the eternal righteous one He is qualified to propitiate for the sins of the world.
He is also able to present us without spot or wrinkle or any such defect before God. He is able to conform us to the image of Himself.
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ...." (Eph. 1:4,5)
God can put us into a sphere and realm of a living Christ in which His nature can conform us to the image of the One who is only alone well pleasing to Him.
Normal to this God is Christ. So I allow Him to put me INTO Christ for His good pleasure and His eternal purpose. I do not argue that He change and give up His uncreated and eternal perfection.
You're simply engaged in special pleading and blaming the victim.
I don't mine reviewing the logical fallacy called "special pleading", But it seems to me that you critics are allowed to make your special pleadings on the negative side but I am not to interpret as I see appropriate on a positive side.
Do you think your logics do NOT look like "special pleading" to me ?
Where is the weight of evidence as regards the bulk of what the Bible reveals? It is certainly, I feel, with His desire "that all men be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth."
I see God's eagerness to save and not judge. But I also see that He will not relinquish His perfection of holiness and of righteousness.
"God couldn't You just be a little less perfect ?"
This is special pleading.
What I read in the Bible is more like this - God says "Jaywill, because of the entrance of sin into the world you and I have become incompatible. By the way, I don't change."
So I pay attention to His plan to reconcile me, to justify me, to sanctify me, and to present be before Himself in Christ, like Christ for my enjoyment and His glory.
Your deity is reprehensibly evil. No amount of appealing to the Bible is going to change it. No amount of blaming the victim will help your argument.
A door is opened for me to let the Son of God be the victim in my place. If I insist that I will carry the penalty myself when the offer of a Substitute is there, then the victim IS to blame.
Jesus Christ is here to be Victim on your behalf.
I'd take it rather than argue that you're innocent.
Your own conscience knows what you would not like to have to explain to God what and why you did it.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2012 12:42 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2012 1:41 PM jaywill has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 143 of 722 (682812)
12-05-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jaywill
12-05-2012 1:29 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
We arrived in this universe and God informed us of His judgment upon these things. The last judgment is His. It is not mine. It is not yours.
Once again: special pleading. It's okay for your deity, but evil for anyone else.
Evil is evil. Your deity commits evil acts in the Bible. Your deity is evil.
This is a difference of root morality, jaywill. Your Bible means no more to me than any other work of fiction, so quoting it can only be used to determine what the fictional characters within are responsible for. If your Bible says it was "good," that doesn;t override my own moral judgment.
I don't accept your Bronze-age Authoritarian ethics. They are inconsistent, as they stem solely from an authority who can change the rules and make exceptions at any time. To you, if your god told you to bomb a kindergarten classroom, that would be "good," as after all, "the last judgment is his."
My ethics stem from a consistent valuation of sentient life and suffering. Causing death and suffering is evil.
Consistently valuing sentient life means that genocide is evil. End of story. There is nothing a people can do to deserve to be killed en mass. Anyone who commits genocide is evil. Period.
That means your deity is evil.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 1:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 2:53 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 144 of 722 (682819)
12-05-2012 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Rahvin
12-05-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
Once again: special pleading. It's okay for your deity, but evil for anyone else.
You like to say "your diety". But I think one Creator created both of us. I don't think you have your own personal Creator and I mine. I believe ONE God is God whether we like to own God or not.
Evil is evil. Your deity commits evil acts in the Bible. Your deity is evil.
I say we can misunderstand. Didn't you regard your dad as doing EVIL at times when with latter maturity you understood his actions better ?
I read a story about a man who had to rush his kid to the emergency room. The doctor's strict instruction to him were to NOT LET THE CHILD FALL ASLEEP.
So all the way to the hospital he kept shaking the kid, hitting the kid to assure that he did not slip into sleep. The ride to the emergency room was long and tense. No doubt the child did not understand. The child was being saved from a greater harm.
Perhaps latter this person realized the father's shaking and hitting were a saving of his life on the way to the hospital.
I do not say ALL accounts in the Bible are easy for me to explain. I am not made of stone or wood. I have feelings about certain difficult occurences. I reserve the right to admit that perhaps I am short in understanding as God understands.
In the mean time there is Jesus Who appears absolutely not for Himself. He pours out everything for the obedience to His Father's will.
I trust the more difficult stories will be comprehended by me as I mature spiritually. If I offer some possibilities they are no more "special pleading" then your hunting amid myriads of kind acts of God in the Bible only to choke on a few examples of His ability to be strigent.
This is a difference of root morality, jaywill. Your Bible means no more to me than any other work of fiction, so quoting it can only be used to determine what the fictional characters within are responsible for. If your Bible says it was "good," that doesn;t override my own moral judgment.
So if this is now argument by disrespect, then you have lowered the bar of discussion. Its curious though how you would expend so much energy and thought to try to refute something which means no more to you than fiction.
And if you are an Atheist then your outrage is really meaningless. What is goodness then ? Evolution cares nothing for what is good. It only works for what will survive.
How then can you trust your moral sense ? It cares nothing for any ultimate absolute goodness. It only cares for what may help the physical organism to survive.
I don't accept your Bronze-age Authoritarian ethics. They are inconsistent, as they stem solely from an authority who can change the rules and make exceptions at any time. To you, if your god told you to bomb a kindergarten classroom, that would be "good," as after all, "the last judgment is his."
That's rather stupid. There's ample teaching from the mouth of Jesus that not everything done in His name would be acceptable.
"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in YOur name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in YOur name did many works of power?
And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matt. 7:23,24)
Both in the OT and even more in the NT we are given heads up that not all religious zeal will stand uncondemned before God.
Then again those who read the Bible the least often fancy themselves the best experts on it.
My ethics stem from a consistent valuation of sentient life and suffering. Causing death and suffering is evil.
That's good. But I am more impressed with Jesus.
Consistently valuing sentient life means that genocide is evil. End of story. There is nothing a people can do to deserve to be killed en mass. Anyone who commits genocide is evil. Period.
That means your deity is evil.
More argument by ad hom. "Maniac" "Psychopath" "Monster" whatever.
If you were in position to judge God as inferior in righteousness than yourself then I suspect you would have the same impact on history as Jesus.
Clearly, you're nowhere close. Just another run of the mill Web skeptic - dime a dozen. Have the impact on human history that Jesus had then maybe I'll consider your ethics superior to God's.
If Christ negatively critiques the God of the OT then that would be highly significant to my Christian worldview.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2012 1:41 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2012 3:26 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 149 by hooah212002, posted 12-05-2012 3:41 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 145 of 722 (682821)
12-05-2012 3:09 PM


Folks, there is no final accounting with the Atheistic evolutionary system.
At least with the God of the Bible there is a concluding and final judgment according to an infallible record of one's deeds. With the evolutionary system all the evil doers will only melt peacefully into the dust of the ground.
Just like Adolf Eichman said - the Nazis would jump laughing into their graves having done what they did.
This, the skeptic of Christ's Gospel, thinks is more right.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2012 3:24 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-05-2012 3:36 PM jaywill has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 146 of 722 (682822)
12-05-2012 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jaywill
12-05-2012 3:09 PM


Folks, there is no final accounting with the Atheistic evolutionary system.
Why do you feel there is such a need? You say this like it is some great revelation.
Things live, things die. No more, no less.
At least with the God of the Bible there is a concluding and final judgment according to an infallible record of one's deeds. With the evolutionary system all the evil doers will only melt peacefully into the dust of the ground.
And there is the difference between fantasy and reality. What is the problem with just becoming dust of the ground?
Just like Adolf Eichman said - the Nazis would jump laughing into their graves having done what they did.
And here we go. When you got nothing bring up the Nazi's. Poor form Jaywill, poor form.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:09 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 147 of 722 (682823)
12-05-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
12-05-2012 2:53 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
You like to say "your diety". But I think one Creator created both of us. I don't think you have your own personal Creator and I mine. I believe ONE God is God whether we like to own God or not. .
But what you believe has no bearing on reality does it. Rahvin does not have a deity, you believe you do. You are insulting him by belittling his lack of a belief in a sky fairy, but then again as a christian that seems to be your right doesn't it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 2:53 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 148 of 722 (682824)
12-05-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jaywill
12-05-2012 3:09 PM


jaywill writes:
At least with the God of the Bible there is a concluding and final judgment according to an infallible record of one's deeds. With the evolutionary system all the evil doers will only melt peacefully into the dust of the ground.
In this life, the innocent suffer while the evil live in luxury. An "ultimate accounting" in a hypothetical afterlife is a copout and inherently evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:09 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:57 PM ringo has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(3)
Message 149 of 722 (682826)
12-05-2012 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
12-05-2012 2:53 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
That's good. But I am more impressed with Jesus.
If you were in position to judge God as inferior in righteousness than yourself then I suspect you would have the same impact on history as Jesus.
So let me see if I have this correct (a simple yes or no will suffice): you believe that a ficticious character in a book that, according to the book, wiped the face of the earth clean of nearly all living things, has a better moral fiber than Rahvin, an person that you only know via his postings on this website but via those postings has indicated a generally high moral standard? Is that correct?
If we pretend for a moment that we have two characters (YHWH and Rahvin) and all we know about them is what is written about them (YHWH has the bible and Rahvin has EvC), you are seriously going to say that the one whose character is listed as murdering 99.9% of the planet has a better moral system than the character that espouses equality for all and NOT to murder? How can you justify that sort of thing and live with yourself?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 2:53 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:52 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 150 of 722 (682828)
12-05-2012 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by hooah212002
12-05-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Enough blame and salvation to go around
So let me see if I have this correct (a simple yes or no will suffice): you believe that a ficticious character ...
No you do not have it correct.
Your question presupposes God and Christ as fictitious.
Why should I go along with such a loaded presupposition ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by hooah212002, posted 12-05-2012 3:41 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 12-05-2012 3:55 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 153 by Eli, posted 12-05-2012 3:58 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 154 by hooah212002, posted 12-05-2012 4:17 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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