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Author Topic:   Is God good?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 196 of 722 (683027)
12-06-2012 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Rahvin
12-06-2012 5:15 PM


Didn't answer the questions.
I'm not holding my breath. That's for sure.
Why was God concerned for the 120,000 humans in Nineveh who could not tell their right hand from their left (Jonah 4:11)?
I thought God was eager to slay kids ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 5:15 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 6:19 PM jaywill has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 197 of 722 (683028)
12-06-2012 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Panda
12-06-2012 12:05 PM


God is so good...
If passively disregarding the life of some unformed babies is evil, imagine how evil god must be to actually take an active role in killing MILLIONS of grown children!
There is not enough sorrow in the universe to reserve for the monster that is god.
This is silly.
Once one stands back, and recognizes that the Almighty Power behind this life experience KILLS us all, and every other life form too, sooner or later... you are speaking silly.
Extinction is a second death.
Extinction is permanent.
But in everyother case, the life of the species continues even though the "flowers" fall off the vine in season.
Once a Christian understand he actually is born again,...
...and that a christian returns in a re-birth which regenerates his psyche from the code inherent in the Human Gene pool,...
... then, there is no death, no pain, no sorrow in facing the FACT-OF LIFE:
Revelation 21:4-5
And God, (blessing them with Total Phylogenetic Consciousness: [Carl Jung]), shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind: [Freudian Hypothesis]), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a genetically remember able, a continuum, we shall remember from one generation to the next living generation); and,
(in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death... (For we shall not all "sleep:" [1Co15:51], but total phylogenetic Consciousness will have evolved), neither sorrow... (For we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own past[s], flowers upon our genetic vine), nor crying,.. (for we are happy in these revelations of reconstitution from our human gene pool), neither shall there be any more pain, (as men will have neurological control, a self-hypnotic ability to stop the nerve signals to the brain),... for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens paradigm of the life experience) are passed away.
And he, (the Christ, the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind in their own Kingdom within), that sat upon the throne (within the kingdom of the evolving Homoiousian sapiens' brain: [Luke 17:21]) said, Behold, (in this way, through evolution: [Gen 9:11-18]), I make all things (in human experience) new.
And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true, (i.e.; words of Christ himself, who is the experiential presence of Truth in us, rational, the Unconscious mind), and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Panda, posted 12-06-2012 12:05 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Panda, posted 12-06-2012 6:12 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 198 of 722 (683029)
12-06-2012 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by jaywill
12-06-2012 3:55 PM


Re: Military Bravado
jaywill writes:
If God is that bad then maybe you could answer me this:
How come in the book of Jonah God expresses concern about young ones being judged by Him who are not yet able to discern their left from their right hand ?
Perhaps you could explain how someone that intentionally kills millions of children is NOT evil?
I think that you can't - else you would have.
If Rahvin is evil for not caring about unformed children then god is evil because god intentionally killed MILLIONS of children.
Your own logic and morality condemns god's behaviour.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 3:55 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 6:58 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 199 of 722 (683030)
12-06-2012 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by kofh2u
12-06-2012 6:06 PM


Re: God is so good...
kofh2u writes:
This is silly.
Although it is nice of you to preface your reply with a summary, it is unnecessary.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by kofh2u, posted 12-06-2012 6:06 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 200 of 722 (683031)
12-06-2012 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jaywill
12-06-2012 5:58 PM


Didn't answer the questions.
I'm not holding my breath. That's for sure.
Why was God concerned for the 120,000 humans in Nineveh who could not tell their right hand from their left (Jonah 4:11)?
I thought God was eager to slay kids ?
I never claimed god was eager to slay kids.
I claimed that, if he was responsible for the Flood, then he is evil.
Please try restricting responses to claims actually made.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 5:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 7:08 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 204 by kofh2u, posted 12-06-2012 7:18 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 201 of 722 (683034)
12-06-2012 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Panda
12-06-2012 6:09 PM


Re: Military Bravado
Perhaps you could explain how someone that intentionally kills millions of children is NOT evil?
I think that you can't - else you would have.
If Rahvin is evil for not caring about unformed children then god is evil because god intentionally killed MILLIONS of children.
Your own logic and morality condemns god's behaviour.
My entire discussion on this thread has had the underlining ADMISSION that certain instances of God's judging I cannot easily understand or explain.
My faith, however, is like that of Abraham who challenged God whether He was going to judge the innocent along with the guilty -
"Shall the Judge of all the earth do not do justly?" - Abraham (Genesis 18:25)
So what have I done? I have offered valuable additional information to consider in our trying to evaluate some of the tougher instances of God's passing judgment.
ALL of the Canaanites were not judged with equal harshness. The more logical choice to me is to assume God had reasons for that. It is less logical that the severity of judgment depended on the mood He was in that day, arbitrarily.
It is evident that God cared about the 120,000 immature humans in the city He was about to judge - Nineveh. It is less logical to me that in this instance God cared but in other instances it was not a concern.
The hard core accuser seem not to want to answer the Jonah question because it interferes with their caricature based on selective samples rather than all AVAILABLE samples of such judging.
You see, I can admit to me there are some unknowns.
Do I WANT to believe that God is good? Of course I do.
I also want to believe that the ONLY reason we can speak of good verses evil is because we hold that there must be some transcendent scoring system or standard by which the level of goodness can be measured.
That God doesn't exists makes the real issue of good and evil meaningless.
That man is reponsible for moral behavior strongly indicates he is responsible to SOMEONE in greater authority then himself. Without the existence of a transcendent moral rule maker, transgression against good is really ultimately meaningless.
Are your moral laws the result of chance ?
Is your good something which can be physically weighed with some scientific instrument ?
It is easy to branch off into another subject.
Another question: If God was genocidal towards the killing of children WHY was He so against the sacrificing of the Canaanite children to their pagan gods?

"And you shall not give any of your offspring to pass through the fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God; I am Jehovah." (Lev. 18:21)
"(For the men of the land who were before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
"Anyone of the children of Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall surely be put to death ..." (20:2)
"And if the people of the land ever hide their eyes from that man when he gives some of his offspring to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set My face against that man and against his family ..." (4,5)
You don't think it was right of God to vindicate upon Canaanites who for the large part of 400 years were offering children to idols ?
Balaam was a Gentile prophet.
Jethro was a Gentile priest of God.
Melchizedek was a Gentile priest.
I say that punishment did not come apart from divine warning. I believe the Canaanites had been warned because God is just.
I believe that the hyperbolic language of Joshua is probably mostly centered not on non-combatants but on combatants.
Rehab of Jericho informs the Hebrew spies that they also could see that God's judgment was coming. And for an additional 40 years the reputation of the people of Yahweh spread in Canaan, that they had miraculously crossed out of Egypt through the Red Sea.
If you do not have to consider these and other contributing facts in your assessment, I as a serious believer in God and Bible student must.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Panda, posted 12-06-2012 6:09 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Panda, posted 12-06-2012 7:35 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 222 by Stile, posted 12-07-2012 2:11 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 202 of 722 (683040)
12-06-2012 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Rahvin
12-06-2012 6:19 PM


I never claimed god was eager to slay kids.
I claimed that, if he was responsible for the Flood, then he is evil.
Please try restricting responses to claims actually made.
I'll work on it.
NOW ... as a serious Bible student should I take a pair of scissors and simply cut out of my Bible the clear utterances like in JONAH about God's concern for the youngsters ?
Should I just lay hold of the Flood and proclaim God is monster, monster ?
I think it is "special pleading" for me NOT to consider other relevant passages. I need to consider them all together.
I need a full picture. My Bible doesn't stop with Joshua 7 through 9.
It doesn't stop with Genesis 6-9.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 6:19 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 7:13 PM jaywill has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 203 of 722 (683042)
12-06-2012 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by jaywill
12-06-2012 7:08 PM


NOW ... as a serious Bible student should I take a pair of scissors and simply cut out of my Bible the clear utterances like in Joshua about God's concern for the youngsters ?
Should I just lay hold of the Flood and proclaim God is monster, monster ?
If Hitler personally risked his life to save a thousand children, would that make up for the Holocaust?
If he saved a million?
I'm aware that the Bible contains examples of goodness. Most of it was from Jesus. The problem is, doing good works does not erase evil.
Hell, even the Bible supports that - there are no good works that can be done, according to Christians, capable of saving the soul of a human being.
Nothing good in the Bible erases the fact that in Genesis god kills off all but 8 people in the whole world. Nothing makes up for the largest mass-murder that (n)ever happened. That one act, regardless of any others, is sufficient to label him "evil."

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 7:08 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by kofh2u, posted 12-06-2012 7:29 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 207 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 7:54 PM Rahvin has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 204 of 722 (683043)
12-06-2012 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Rahvin
12-06-2012 6:19 PM


I claimed that, if he was responsible for the Flood, then he is evil.
Your problem is reading comprehension.
If you actually comprehnded what the Bible says, you would ponder your complete ignorance in regard to what this "god" actually is.
You would not speaks so foolishly as to say " if he was responsible for the Flood."
You would understand from the book you were reading thaty "he" tells you, EXPLICITLY, that he is good, but nevertheless, he also is responsible for both good things for men and evil consequences they face.
To wit:
Isa 45:7
I, (almighty Reality), form the light, and create darkness:
I,
(both Friend and Foe of the living), make peace, and create (the environment for possible great misfortune), evil:
I, (both Friend and Foe to life and man), the LORD, (of the living), do all these things, (naturally, through the environmental forces).
Clearly, this tells us that the almighty is the force behind the Facts-of-Life.
This Reality is all we have.
It is foolish to question whether it is good or evil.
It is what it is, and we now believe we are to adapt to it or else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 6:19 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 205 of 722 (683045)
12-06-2012 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Rahvin
12-06-2012 7:13 PM


Nothing good in the Bible erases the fact that in Genesis god kills off all but 8 people in the whole world.
Again, this is silly when you identify God as that whole entity we meet at birth, Life, itself.
The Facts-of-Life were that, about 40,000 years ago, all mankind went extinct, except Modern Homo sapiens.
Clearly, when it is clear that "I am," the reality we face exists, it is this reality and the Facts-of-Life that we must learn to accept and deal with.
In fact, Modern man probably was better off in that he survived and flourished in the absence of competition with those other 22 now extinct humans in our ascent.
In fact, this science confirms the meaning of Genesis 6-9:
The "evil" of extinction for Neanderthal man was a blessing for us, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 7:13 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Larni, posted 12-07-2012 3:10 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(3)
Message 206 of 722 (683046)
12-06-2012 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by jaywill
12-06-2012 6:58 PM


Re: Military Bravado
jaywill writes:
My entire discussion on this thread has had the underlining ADMISSION that certain instances of God's judging I cannot easily understand or explain.
But you have no trouble calling Rahvin evil for a much lesser act.
Your special pleading has been noted - but that does not make it acceptable.
jaywill writes:
My faith, however, is like that of Abraham who challenged God whether He was going to judge the innocent along with the guilty
Then it is strange that god judged the innocent children as guilty and killed them.
jaywill writes:
So what have I done? I have offered valuable additional information to consider in our trying to evaluate some of the tougher instances of God's passing judgment.
So, how many nice things does god have to say to excuse his genocide?
Is it possible to do enough good deeds to 'undo' the deaths of so many?
jaywill writes:
It is evident that God cared about the 120,000 immature humans in the city He was about to judge - Nineveh. It is less logical to me that in this instance God cared but in other instances it was not a concern.
God killed MILLIONS of children.
By any definition of evil that you can provide, that makes him evil.
God then saying he cares about 120,000 children doesn't negate his mass slaughter.
jaywill writes:
I also want to believe that the ONLY reason we can speak of good verses evil is because we hold that there must be some transcendent scoring system or standard by which the level of goodness can be measured.
And, using your "transcendent scoring system or standard", god is evil.
jaywill writes:
Another question: If God was genocidal towards the killing of children WHY was He so against the sacrificing of the Canaanite children to their pagan gods?
Perhaps he is a sociopath? - Like an abusive spouse that says "I'm sorry I hurt you. I love you really, but you made me angry!"
At best: he is insane. At worse: he is evil.
There is no possibility that an omnipotent and omniscient god is both good AND kills millions of children.
jaywill writes:
If you do not have to consider these and other contributing facts in your assessment, I as a serious believer in God and Bible student must.
And those statements do not excuse the intentional deaths of millions of people.
jaywill writes:
Do I WANT to believe that God is good? Of course I do.
And I expect that there is nothing that god could do that would stop you from claiming he is good.
If genocide is not enough, I doubt anything would be.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 6:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2012 1:28 PM Panda has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 207 of 722 (683049)
12-06-2012 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Rahvin
12-06-2012 7:13 PM


If Hitler personally risked his life to save a thousand children, would that make up for the Holocaust?
If he saved a million?
I'm aware that the Bible contains examples of goodness. Most of it was from Jesus. The problem is, doing good works does not erase evil.
Hell, even the Bible supports that - there are no good works that can be done, according to Christians, capable of saving the soul of a human being.
Nothing good in the Bible erases the fact that in Genesis god kills off all but 8 people in the whole world. Nothing makes up for the largest mass-murder that (n)ever happened. That one act, regardless of any others, is sufficient to label him "evil."
If Jesus is good why don't we read of His teaching as you are teaching - God of the story of the Noah flood was EVIL !!
You see Rahvlin, to condemn God you have to condemn Christ also.
Christ mentions Noah and the flood.
None of His references to that event discuss the evil of God. WHY NOT?
Christ's reference to the Flood are mentioned as point to mankind to prepare not to be similarly judged -
"But first He [the Son of Man] must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. And even as it happened in the days of Noah, so will it be also in the days of the Son of Man.
They were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all." (Luke 17:25-27)
Not a hint here about the evil doing of God. Plenty of lesson about the empending judgment coming upon unexpecting mankind in thier rejection of the Son of Man.
No lesson from Jesus Christ on the evil of His Father but on man's blindness and ignorance of coming JUDGEMENT.
WHY?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 7:13 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Rahvin, posted 12-06-2012 8:09 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 210 by kofh2u, posted 12-07-2012 10:40 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 208 of 722 (683051)
12-06-2012 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by jaywill
12-06-2012 7:54 PM


You see Rahvlin, to condemn God you have to condemn Christ also.
I dont have a problem with that. I try not to hold contradictory views.
By the way, it's "Rahvin," not "Rahvlin." There's no "L."
Not a hint here about the evil doing of God. Plenty of lesson about the empending judgment coming upon unexpecting mankind in thier rejection of the Son of Man.
Since by the "judgment" you're referring to the Flood, the mass murder of every man woman and child on the planet other than 8 individuals, the judgment itself was the act of evil.
You continue to blame the victim and use special pleading. It's not helping your argument.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 7:54 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 209 of 722 (683061)
12-07-2012 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by kofh2u
12-06-2012 7:29 PM


You've been called on using these images on another thread by admins.
Just letting the lurkers know.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by kofh2u, posted 12-06-2012 7:29 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 210 of 722 (683076)
12-07-2012 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by jaywill
12-06-2012 7:54 PM


If Jesus is good why don't we read of His teaching as you are teaching - God of the story of the Noah flood was EVIL !!
You see Rahvlin, to condemn God you have to condemn Christ also.
Christ mentions Noah and the flood.
None of His references to that event discuss the evil of God. WHY NOT
Why not?
Because of what I have been telling you all...
The flood will come again in a different form, one that does not cause the extinct of a body of men who would not adapt, but one that will wash over all the psychological paradigms which the culture has cast over the whole world, werein men are focused on getting a woman and divorcing her for others again and again while they satisfy their fleash with every food of pleasure.
What is coming is The Truth, suddenly available everywhere instantly such as to drive the previous paradigms into extinction and raising up new creatures in the Reality of this God, who is the almighty Force behind life.
In the light of that Truth, men will become as if new creatures working as intended, having "dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2012 7:54 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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