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Author Topic:   Is God good?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 211 of 722 (683077)
12-07-2012 10:47 AM


Nurse will be along in a minute.......

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 212 of 722 (683089)
12-07-2012 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
12-06-2012 4:34 PM


Re: Military Bravado
jar writes:
There is no one God found in the Bible rather a whole series as the concept of God evolved and each writer created a new God.
The God that is associated with the Flood Myth is an evil critter. The God in the Jonah myth is an entirely different critter.
But in my belief there IS one God...and I think you and I differ on our ability as humans to relate to Him/Her/It and whether it is even important to do so. Your beliefs are, in my opinion, more Jewish based than Christian....although you have stated God to be good, you have also declared that She is complete, whereas I differentiate an evil spirit from being in communion with God...I maintain that light and darkness are not one unity regardless who created them

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 12-06-2012 4:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 12-07-2012 12:07 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 213 of 722 (683090)
12-07-2012 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
12-07-2012 12:06 PM


Re: Military Bravado
Jesus was a Jew.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 12-07-2012 12:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 12-07-2012 12:10 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 722 (683091)
12-07-2012 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
12-07-2012 12:07 PM


Re: Military Bravado
yes, and he was human....but we would disagree on whether God (GOD) intended to use him to form communion with humanity or not.....you would ask what this concept even means...I would maintain that we can choose to associate with light or darkness, and that we need Jesus to be alive in order to have the communion...without that concept we are but wandering ants with no hope of communication/communion with God.

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 Message 213 by jar, posted 12-07-2012 12:07 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 215 of 722 (683092)
12-07-2012 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
12-07-2012 12:10 PM


Re: Military Bravado
But what does that have to do with the topic?
You want God to be good, but what does the evidence say?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 216 of 722 (683093)
12-07-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
12-07-2012 12:24 PM


Re: Military Bravado
jar writes:
You want God to be good, but what does the evidence say?
I think it says that if you start with the premise that GOD both exists and is good then you will conclude that GOD both exists and is good.

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 217 of 722 (683099)
12-07-2012 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Panda
12-06-2012 7:35 PM


But you have no trouble calling Rahvin evil for a much lesser act.
Your special pleading has been noted - but that does not make it acceptable.
What you should note is that Rahvlin calls God a monster for the death of children and at the same time regards the destruction of children in the fetal stage as less significant than that of a mosquito.
This was about measurement criteria and not personal stuff.
I applied his own term to him only to make the point of what I see of his hypocrisy.
I think I have proved "special pleading" on the part of anyone who makes the broad generalization about God in the Bible without considering all the facts.
Ie. Did you yet explain Jonah 4:11? If you sweep that under the rug and make broad generalizations about the God of the Bible's callousness towards children, that appears to me as "special pleading."
jw:
My faith, however, is like that of Abraham who challenged God whether He was going to judge the innocent along with the guilty
Then it is strange that god judged the innocent children as guilty and killed them.
1.) I have already admitted that some passages are strange.
2.) Because Jonah 4:11 reveals God's concern for the innocent children, a logical possibility to me is that the children who died collatorally in some other instances was NOT because of their guilt.
I have to include that God's omniscience is aware of that AND that He can account for that in the eternal scheme of things.
You and I as mere human beings cannot.
Just because I am not always told WHAT is the final outcome of these children does not lead me to beleive that it must be unjust.
Quite the opposite is my expectation.
In the mean time we humans do learn a lesson, if we are wise. Our actions CAN indeed result in a negative consequences not only upon ourselves but our immediate family as well.
A fact of life is that crap that you and I do MAY cause the suffering or even death of our unimplicated children. Do you disagree with this ?
jaywill writes:
So what have I done? I have offered valuable additional information to consider in our trying to evaluate some of the tougher instances of God's passing judgment.
So, how many nice things does god have to say to excuse his genocide?
I do not regard this as "nice" things done to counteract evil things done elsewhere. I regard, for example, the Jonah 4:11 passage to indicate His continuous character.
In other words - As God CARED in Jonah 4:11 He would also CARE in say the judging of Achan and his family in Joshua 7:1-26.
Let us assume some of Achan's family were stoned though innocent. I believe that God knew this. And in the larger scheme of things the Just God will compensate.
The alternative for me would be to believe that a fickle and moody God simply acted differently merely because of mood.
It is a fact of life that not all in this world suffer or die because of a specific transgression. Today some children will die in hospitals and elsewhere. The fact is some are innocent of a transgression, yet in the providence of God they WILL die.
It should be noted that Jesus taught that calamities coming upon men did not ALWAYS mean that they were sinners above other men -
Luke 13:1-5 - "Now there were some present at the same time who reported to Him [Jesus] concerning the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
And He answered and said to them, Do you think that these Galileans were sinners beyond all the Galileans because they suffered these things? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
Or these eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were debtors beyond all the men dwelling in Jerusalem ? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you shall all similarly perish."
What I see here is firstly, we ALL need to repent before God.
Secondly, God knows that some will die miserable deaths yet be less guilty then other men.
Then I put all the facts before me together:
1.) God cares for the kids who do not know their left hand from their right.
2.) The comes a time when we all mature and realize we need to repent for being sinners, debtors towards God.
3.) Calamities will sometimes seem to be indiscriminate in this world.
4.) In the Old Testament judgments on one level the wicked are being judged by physical death. Yet on another level it is a calamity which may claim some not particularly more guilty than other sinners, ie some children.
Some would cynically say that this is "Let God sort it out." I agree that only God can sort it out. That is the responsibility of the Ultimate Governor of all being, of all the universe.
Is it possible to do enough good deeds to 'undo' the deaths of so many?
Again, I do not view God doing good to counter balance evil that He previously did. That is YOUR concept.
I view the total acts of God as not all being well understood by our limited view. My expectation is that they are all good acts. Some I do not yet understand.
This should not be that unreasonable I think. Previously we thought some DNA was "junk DNA." Latter scienctists discovered a positive purpose for this apparent "Junk".
Convert that to the moral universe. Some apparent actions which we today view as wrong of God, I wager will appear just and good when we know more.
If you want to run with the evil God, incompitent God who needs to sit at your feet and learn a thing or two about goodness, you go ahead and run with that.
I look out at the vastness of the universe. Niether on a macro level or on a micro level are we to detect where systems of it all either begin or end. The smallest structure we still hunt for. The largest structure we still hunt for.
Convert that to the moral universe. In many things God must have the big picture but we do not.
I do not think God is doing justly here in order to apologize for unjust doing there. It is more likely to me that I simply am limited in my apprehension of His goodness in every instance of His involvement with man.
jaywill writes:
It is evident that God cared about the 120,000 immature humans in the city He was about to judge - Nineveh. It is less logical to me that in this instance God cared but in other instances it was not a concern.
God killed MILLIONS of children.
By any definition of evil that you can provide, that makes him evil.
God then saying he cares about 120,000 children doesn't negate his mass slaughter.
Sounds like you want to blame the millions of deaths of aborted children on God.
Your statistics are of interest to me.
How many children died in the Noah flood ?
How many died when the Amalakites were defeated ?
How many died when the Midianites were defeated ?
How many died when the firstborn Egyptains in the 10th plague came?
I'd like to see how you're so sure you can add all this up to "millions".
If you cannot supply definite statistics that add up to "milions" then don't, for emotional appeal, pull "millions" out of the air in ignorance.
As a matter of fact I think I will begin to hold you to more definite specifics. I want you to supply the specific passages which undoubtedly indicate the death of children.
I really don't KNOW that children died in the Flood.
I really don't KNOW that children died in Sodom and Gamorrah.
I really don't even KNOW if children died in Achan's family.
From now on I will not argue general assumptions with you. I want specific passages which unquestionably indicate children died in God's judging.
Why should I make it so easy for you?
Why help you on your general accusations?
From now on I want SPECIFIC and definite indications that children died in one of these accounts you are incensed about.
What is the COUNT of kids that drowned in the flood of Noah ?
And, using your "transcendent scoring system or standard", god is evil.
I suspect that it is the humanitarian efforts of Judeo/Christian based groups upon which you base your criticism of God.
Like the little child who has to sit on its mother's lap in order to be able to reach her face to slap it, to a large degree you are borrowing a Christian world view in order to inform your outrage.
You have to stand upon the enfluence on the Western world of humanitarian outreaches based in Judeo / Christian ethical thought in order to criticize the God of the Bible.
Dinesh D'zouza speaks on this here
Start around 6:55 MIN/SEC into the Video to about 11:40
Ie. why didn't the great pre-Christian Greek thinkers scoff at the Spartans leaving children out in the wilderness to die?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO80oP3eiSk
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Panda, posted 12-06-2012 7:35 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Drosophilla, posted 12-07-2012 4:49 PM jaywill has replied
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 Message 418 by saab93f, posted 12-12-2012 4:24 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 722 (683103)
12-07-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Straggler
12-07-2012 12:27 PM


Re: Military Bravado
In the context of my belief, God started with you...you didnt start with God. Just sayin...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 12-07-2012 12:27 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Straggler, posted 12-07-2012 1:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 219 of 722 (683104)
12-07-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
12-07-2012 1:47 PM


Re: Military Bravado
jar writes:
You want God to be good, but what does the evidence say?
Straggler writes:
I think it says that if you start with the premise that GOD both exists and is good then you will conclude that GOD both exists and is good.
Phat writes:
In the context of my belief, God started with you...you didnt start with God.
If by "the context of my belief" you mean operating under the assumption that GOD both exists and is good - Then I think you are kinda proving my point.....

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 220 of 722 (683105)
12-07-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by jaywill
12-05-2012 3:57 PM


jaywill writes:
ringo writes:
In this life, the innocent suffer while the evil live in luxury. An "ultimate accounting" in a hypothetical afterlife is a copout and inherently evil.
That's YOUR gamble. That it is hypothetical.
You're missing the point. Whether or not my gamble pays off is irrelevant to the topic. My point, which is on topic, is that the hypothesis of an afterlife in which accounts are settled is evil in itself. It's like raping somebody and saying, "Don't worry, I'll pay you next Tuesday." A god who would set up such a system is evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:57 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Rahvin, posted 12-07-2012 2:07 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 221 of 722 (683106)
12-07-2012 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
12-07-2012 2:02 PM


You're missing the point. Whether or not my gamble pays off is irrelevant to the topic. My point, which is on topic, is that the hypothesis of an afterlife in which accounts are settled is evil in itself. It's like raping somebody and saying, "Don't worry, I'll pay you next Tuesday." A god who would set up such a system is evil.
Don't neglect that half of the afterlife is eternal torture.
No crime can possibly be worthy of eternal punishment. Even Hitler wouldn't deserve to be tortured forever. Even if you tortured him for the full lifetime of every victim of the Holocaust and every dead soldier from WWII and all of their children and grandchildren, the punishment would still merely be beginning. That's not justice - it's hyperbole taken literally.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 222 of 722 (683107)
12-07-2012 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by jaywill
12-06-2012 6:58 PM


God's rules are still meaningless
jaywill writes:
Without the existence of a transcendent moral rule maker, transgression against good is really ultimately meaningless.
The world seems to operate as if transgression against good is really ultimately meaningless.
Have you considered that the world may operate in this way because that's actually the way it is?
Of course, even given the existence of a transcendent moral rule maker... transgression against good is still really ultimately meaningless.
It may have meaning to the transcendent moral rule maker... but beyond that, it would still be meaningless.
Just as human-based morals have meaning to human rule makers... but beyond that, it would still be meaningless.
If both systems are ultimately meaningless anyway, why would you consider one to be "better"?
Which leads us back to the same answer... the only way to judge if God is good is to judge it ourselves.
Are your moral laws the result of chance?
Is your good something which can be physically weighed with some scientific instrument?
Are God's?
Regardless... why would the answer to these questions matter?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 223 of 722 (683111)
12-07-2012 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Stile
12-07-2012 2:11 PM


Re: God's rules are still meaningless
Stile writes:
Which leads us back to the same answer... the only way to judge if God is good is to judge it ourselves.
For believers and unbelievers alike, by trying our best to live out our destiny...our human potential is all we can do. If we believe that we are doing it for humanity, great! If we believe that we are doing it for ourselves, it is our cultural expectation.
And if we believe, as I do, that it is an inner spark that God gave me and that I give back, the answer is unimportant. The effort itself is everything...it is life!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Stile, posted 12-07-2012 2:11 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 224 of 722 (683116)
12-07-2012 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
12-07-2012 2:02 PM


You're missing the point. Whether or not my gamble pays off is irrelevant to the topic.
I understand you well. The "Ultimate Accounting" is as hypothetical as the "Afterlife".
My point, which is on topic, is that the hypothesis of an afterlife in which accounts are settled is evil in itself.
I don't agree.
The "hypothesis" of a universal vindication is evidenced strongly in the vindication of the resurrection of Christ.
For three days disciples comiserated that evil had WON, injustice had WON, wickedness of man had WON OUT. The third day a great vindication occured in the resurrection of this Righteous One persecuted and murdered.
Based on the shaking of history upon this event, my expectation is that the one RAISED, according to His prediction, will also RAISE others, ie. everyone.

"And He [the Father] gave Him authority to execute judgement because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour i coming in wqhich all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:27-28)
(This is the Bible Study forum)

"Because He [God] has set a day in which He is to judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He has designated, having furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:31)
Now, if you say "Well, I say it is hypothetical because I don't believe any proof of Christ's resurrection is given."
Maybe I can see your dispair because of your unbelief. However, my hope is not an "evil system".
The Bible does speak of "an evil heart of unbelief" -
"Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in falling away from the living God." (Heb 3:12)
The reason I can be empowered to love my enemies is because I know God and Christ ultimately have the last word. Here the expectation of final vindication of Christ's total teaching fuels love and righteousness NOW.
I disagree that the hope of final ajudication after everyone's death necesarily means an "evil system."
Besides, the evolutionist really defines good by what is coming up next. Ie, goodness is what evolution will next produce. Yet the evolutionist would chaff at that being called an inherently evil system.
It's like raping somebody and saying, "Don't worry, I'll pay you next Tuesday." A god who would set up such a system is evil.
The rapist may SAY that. He may SAY a lot of things.
They may indeed be bad things which he SAYS.
With that I cannot argue. But what is important is not what he says. It is this -
"And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)
He may SAY many things. The record of what he DID is with God and is infallible. There is no lost detail. There is no mistake. There is no exaggeration. There is no possibility of error in the particulars.
Can the servant of God say "My Lord delays His coming ..." and act wrongly ? Yes. Can he get away with it? No.
It is not an system which is evil. But I will grant you that it is a system which could be abused ... temporarily.
Do you have an alternative philosophy which cannot be abused ?
"Evolution deems that it is to my survival that I exploit and oppress you."
With the Christian gospel, at least there is possible abuse and reckoning. With the atheistic or agnostic evolutionary gospel there is abuse and peaceful disolvement into the dust of the earth with no final accounting.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 12-07-2012 2:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 12-07-2012 3:42 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 226 by Coragyps, posted 12-07-2012 4:31 PM jaywill has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 225 of 722 (683117)
12-07-2012 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jaywill
12-07-2012 3:15 PM


jaywill writes:
Now, if you say "Well, I say it is hypothetical because I don't believe any proof of Christ's resurrection is given."
You're still missing the point. It is the hypothesis itself, the system,"God's plan" that is inherently evil. Itmakes no difference whether I believe it's true or not. Your belief is in an evil system, based on your definition of evil.
He may SAY many things. The record of what he DID is with God and is infallible.
We're not talking about what "he" said or did. We're talking about what God says He will do, according to your belief. What you say God will do, punish people after death while literally letting them get away with murder in life, is evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2012 3:15 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2012 4:33 PM ringo has not replied

  
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