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Author Topic:   Is God good?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 271 of 722 (683255)
12-09-2012 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Dr Adequate
12-08-2012 4:24 PM


So you can set the world to rights. And then when you've done that, I'll start believing too.
The presence of the Christians on earth is to fulfill the function of salt - "You are the salt of the earth". That is to restrict the world from becomming totally rotten.
But back to the matter of God's goodness or not. To me there are two alternatives about where the cosmic buck really stops. It can stop in God or it can stop in some kind of material matter, ie. particles.
We have these two choices:
1.) In the beginning particles ...
2.) In the beginning God ...
Now I can account for a final moral perfection with God as the ground of all being.
With particles as the origin of everything, I cannot. Or I haven't yet been shown how I could. So I believe "In the beginning God ..." accounts for a ultimate righteousness, beauty, meaning, justice.
These are the attributes I see the atheist wants to cling to. But he doesn't want to think of them ultimately grounded in a final Governor.
Then there's the problem of "God needs correcting."
So if "In the beginning God" leads to a final source of being, how is it that this God has created creatures from whom He needs improvement ? How could they have in themselves something which God was not already furnished with to bestow ?
The origin of some greater umpire or super authority by which God can be adjusted is a problem to me. If the cosmic buck does not stop with God then where does it stop ?
Now when I look at my relationship with my parents or the relationship of my own little children to me as a parent, I see a realistic possibility. Maybe in some matters I lack the fuller knowledge to understand a certain action of God.
I do not assume everything recorded as God's action in the history of His interaction with man, I would approve of at my current level of spiritual maturity.
The important word there is "SOME" in this sentence - "Some things God did in the Bible are [not] well understood or explained by me."
In your world philosophy, whatever it may be, are there some things for which you don't have a fully satisfactory answer yet ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-08-2012 4:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-09-2012 10:14 AM jaywill has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 272 of 722 (683257)
12-09-2012 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
12-09-2012 8:33 AM


Faith writes:
The fact is that the other religions are NOT the same in just about any way you could think of,...... Etc
Yes, Faith, they are different, they all believe slightly different thing to you. And they are all equally convinced that they are right.
Your personal belief is a minority one, a very minority one. Your belief isn't even shared by others in the Christian movement. Is everybody else in the world wrong and you right? How does that work?
If you had been born in Afghanistan to Muslim parents you would not believe what you believe now. You wouldn't know about your form of Protestant christianity; you may not even have heard of Christ. But it's highly likely that you would believe in Islam.
If what you believe is a function of what your parents believe and where they are born, where does that leave the truth of the belief - it's utterly random, but the result of an accident of birth provides an entry to everlasting salvation or not. That is not the action of a benevolent god.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 8:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 10:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 273 of 722 (683258)
12-09-2012 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by crashfrog
12-09-2012 9:35 AM


oh yes they were actual witnesses
But nobody who wrote any part of the Bible was a witness to its events. Not even the Biblical fundamentalists claim that the Bible was authored by eyewitnesses. The best they can claim is that the Bible claims eyewitnesses to its events, but it names almost none of them and certainly no independent corroboration survives to this day, if there ever was any.
Good grief, crash, no no no. The writers of the gospels DO claim to have been eyewitnesses of Christ. John says so in so many words:
1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
We know that if John witnessed all this personally, so did Matthew, Mark, Peter, Jude and James who were also writers of the New Testament.
We certainly also believe that Moses witnessed what he wrote about, and the other writers of the Old Testament as well who report on various events.
About considering that you might be wrong I don't mean just some stance for the sake of argument I mean REALLY considering it sol that it could change you. I guess I can't get it across.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 9:35 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 10:35 AM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 274 of 722 (683263)
12-09-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jaywill
12-09-2012 9:50 AM


Now I can account for a final moral perfection with God as the ground of all being.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a final moral perfection". Personally I don't think I have ever witnessed moral perfection, so I don't see why one needs to account for it.
In your world philosophy, whatever it may be, are there some things for which you don't have a fully satisfactory answer yet ?
The popularity of Jersey Shore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2012 9:50 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2012 11:43 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 275 of 722 (683264)
12-09-2012 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
12-09-2012 12:30 AM


No, I already said this only applied to the Bible and the God of the Bible. Because it's the only true religion and it's revealed by faith, a kind of faith that is evidence for things unseen.
A Muslim might say, and think, the same thing about Islam. That would be his opinion; this is yours.
My brain couldn't have led me to Christianity in a million years, not without God's somehow applying His grace such that I was enabled to see in a new way.
Just as converts to Islam credit Allah for their conversion.
Now, perhaps as you claim your religion is different by being true; but there is no epistemological difference between the mental sensations that led you to join your sect of Christianity and the mental sensations that lead other people to invest their faith in other sects of other religions. You possess faith and opinion; you do not possess knowledge.
---
But we seem to have wandered beyond the scope of this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 12:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 276 of 722 (683265)
12-09-2012 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Tangle
12-09-2012 10:03 AM


Your personal belief is a minority one, a very minority one. Your belief isn't even shared by others in the Christian movement. Is everybody else in the world wrong and you right? How does that work?
My beliefs are very mainstream, not at all minority but standard Protestant doctrine, as I showed particularly on the Catholicism-Protestantism thread.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2012 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2012 11:12 AM Faith has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 277 of 722 (683266)
12-09-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
12-09-2012 10:04 AM


Re: oh yes they were actual witnesses
The writers of the gospels DO claim to have been eyewitnesses of Christ. John says so in so many words
I don't know where you're getting an eyewitness experience of the ministry of Jesus from that John passage. What the John author is claiming here is "eyewitness" to the Christian faith; in other words he's claiming no more than any Christian would claim in the present day - that they've seen the power of faith, the fellowship of Christ's church, and so on. To claim that the John author is claiming personal witness to the events he details is to betray that you've not read your Bible, Faith:
quote:
John 21:
20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, Lord, who is going to betray you?) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, Lord, what about him?
22 Jesus answered, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me. 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
The John author (the gospels are not actually named after their authors) wrote in AD 90, almost six decades after Jesus supposedly died. There's no way that he could have been alive during the ministry of Jesus. The Gospel of John itself tells us that it is the testimony of "the disciple whom Jesus loved", not the author's own witness.
Nobody who wrote any part of the Bible, Faith, was a witness to any of its events. If you're laboring under the misapprehension that it is, it's because you just don't know your Bible very well.
We know that if John witnessed all this personally, so did Matthew, Mark, Peter, Jude and James who were also writers of the New Testament.
Matthew, Mark, Peter, Jude, and James aren't the writers of any of the New Testament. They aren't the authors of any work that survives to this day, in fact. The Gospels don't attribute their authors, only their supposed sources - but, of course, attributing your work to a more authoritative source (for instance, the impossible testimony of the "disciple whom Jesus loved") is precisely the sort of fabrication you'd make if you were trying to fool people into your religion.
We certainly also believe that Moses witnessed what he wrote about
What, his own death at the end of Deuteronomy? Moses somehow wrote down the location of his own burial? That makes no sense. Moses isn't the author of any part of the Bible.
About considering that you might be wrong I don't mean just some stance for the sake of argument I mean REALLY considering it sol that it could change you.
That's what I'm doing. I'm really considering it so that it might change me. But until you give me new evidence I didn't consider the first time, what's going to be different this time that I might be changed? You seem to think that your position is so obviously true that if I'm willing to believe it, I'll be convinced by its self-evident truth.
But Faith, I did believe it. I was convinced of its truth when I started to consider it. It was the act of considering it that made me an atheist. Why would considering it again have a different result, unless there's something new to consider?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 10:04 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 10:51 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 278 of 722 (683268)
12-09-2012 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by crashfrog
12-09-2012 10:35 AM


Re: oh yes they were actual witnesses
Yes the books of the Bible were written by those who claimed to write them. John was writing about witnessing to Jesus Christ, he just likes to refer to Him as the Word of God. You've bought all the revisionist lies about the writing of the Bible. No wonder there's no way to discuss any of this.
Oh for crying out loud don't give me that stupidity about Moses not writing about his own death. We know a scribe had to have added that. Good grief. Scribes probably literally put pen to paper for some of the rest of it as well, which doesn't mean Moses wasn't its author.
I said I gave up. I do give up, I give up I give up I give up I give up.
DON'T consider anything crash. Stay exactly as ignorant as you are, you prefer it, I wouldn't DREAM of trying to change your mind any more;.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 10:35 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 11:09 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 284 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 11:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 279 of 722 (683270)
12-09-2012 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Faith
12-09-2012 10:51 AM


Re: oh yes they were actual witnesses
You're all being killed by lies, convoluted lies. You're being KILLED by them but it looks like you're going to go on defending them to the death.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 10:51 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 12-09-2012 11:18 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 12-09-2012 11:26 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 280 of 722 (683272)
12-09-2012 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
12-09-2012 10:22 AM


Faithe writes:
My beliefs are very mainstream, not at all minority but standard Protestant doctrine, as I showed particularly on the Catholicism-Protestantism thread.
Your beliefs are NOT mainstream.
Christianity in total is a minority belief - the majority of people on the planet believe something different to Christians.
Protestants are a minority belief inside Christianity and your version of it is only a part of that small chunk of those.
You have no special knowledge Faith, you just believe something that most people don't. And all the rest are going to hell.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 10:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by kofh2u, posted 12-09-2012 2:19 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 4:44 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 4:55 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 281 of 722 (683273)
12-09-2012 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
12-09-2012 11:09 AM


Re: oh yes they were actual witnesses
Perhaps you can provide some evidence to support your assertion that "You're all being killed by lies, convoluted lies."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 11:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 282 of 722 (683274)
12-09-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
12-08-2012 10:11 PM


Trying to sift through
Faith writes:
He's GOD, after all, you CANNOT tell Him He has to put up with your "honesty" about thinking He is "evil" when it's a contradiction of His revelation that *HE*IS*GOOD* which all those who believe in Him affirm.
I'm not telling Him that He has to put up with me. Where would you get that idea? He is free to reject me if He judges that to be the way things should be.
But I don't see how lying to myself would be a path leading to a God who is good. That would only lead to a God who is not good.
Therefore, I have to remain honest to myself, and if that leads to God, then I'll find God.
He gave us His revelation but you think it's OK just to ignore it and require Him to obey YOU? That is NOT how it works.
You seem to tell other people what they're doing a lot. And you also get it wrong a lot. I think you should try not to judge other people so much, it will take some stress away.
Again, I don't think it's okay to ignore anything... and I'm not trying to ignore anything. I certainly am not trying to get God to obey me, that would seem futile.
A good teacher listens to their students and tries to find their level of knowledge and speaks to that. You seem to be attempting to teach me about God by telling me things I already know. That doesn't help either of us.
You, in fact most here, talk about God as if He's somebody you have a right to push around.
Assuming God exists and the Bible is correct... God certainly doesn't seem like someone to be pushed around. However, I will try to figure out if He is good or not. And you haven't addressed any of that yet, other than repeating that He is good. I understand that you think He is good. However, that does not help me in finding out if I think He is good.
I think someone is good when they do things for other people that those other people want done for them.
I think someone is bad when they do things for other people that those other people do not want done for them.
I do not think it's right to judge something as good or bad simply because a label of "I am good" is tattooed on their forehead.
Therefore, the print in the Bible that says God is good doesn't tell me anything.
The parts in the Bible where Jesus heals the sick tells me that God is good.
The parts in the Bible where God destroys cities or most of the world tells me that God is bad.
Some Kings would have had you in the dungeon in a flash for anything near this sort of effrontery. He's awfully kind and merciful to you nevertheless, puts up with all your nonsense no doubt because it's so obvious how ignorant you are.
I do not fear an omnipotent being. What would be the point of that? They can do whatever they want to me, and I am powerless to stop any of it. So why would I fear it?
What would make me less ignorant?
I've already read the Bible.
I'm trying to listen to you... but you don't seem to want to respond to me, you just keep telling me things about myself that aren't true.
I am honestly asking God to reach out to me, if I'm not too upsetting for Him.
Do you have any additional actual advice? Or just more capital letters telling me nothing more than "you're doing it wrong"?
Some Kings would have had you in the dungeon in a flash for anything near this sort of effrontery. He's awfully kind and merciful to you nevertheless, puts up with all your nonsense no doubt because it's so obvious how ignorant you are.
I don't have a problem with that. I have no personal attachment to the way I think the world is, it's simply what I've been able to figure out from the information I have so far. If I get some new information, I'm certainly willing to change my ideas based upon that. But to change my ideas simply on your say-so... (even if it is very passionate) well, I've also learned that that sort of thing leads to trouble.
What confusion? You are unwilling to play by His rules, you want Him to play by yours, that's all that's going on here, no confusion.
Again, not true. I'm not resisting anything at all. You haven't even presented anything I could resist if I wanted to. All you've done is repeated "you're doing it wrong!" without any reasonable explanation about how to do it right... Well, other than just agreeing with you for no reason, anyway.
The confusion is that you say God is good, but you you're also expecting me to lie to myself (just agree with you for no reason) in order to see why that is right. That is confusing. But perhaps this is simply the way it has to be?
You seem to be saying that I'm ignorant of God, and that I don't know God.
I completely agree with you on those points. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Then you jump right to the end and say things like... "If you knew God, then you would know that He is good".
Well, I can see how that can be correct as well.
The problem is getting from the beginning to the end. You seem to be completely glossing over the entire reasoning area where you show me who God is and how to get to know Him. Well, that's not completely true... you do offer one path... "just do it". Which is confusing. I cannot simply turn on some "know God" lightswitch or something. And the things I do know of Him (from the Bible) show some conflicting nature between God being good and also being bad. If there are more ways to know God other than the Bible, it would be better if you could describe those ways instead of just repeating that I'm ignorant of God. I already know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 12-08-2012 10:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 722 (683275)
12-09-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
12-09-2012 11:09 AM


Re: oh yes they were actual witnesses
I tend to agree with you to an extent, Faith. Crash is a hardcore atheist who claims that he honestly would like to see some evidence of God, yet he has burned every bridge that would carry him there. Perhaps defending critical thinking and intelligence is a good thing culturally, assuming that science in general was never supernaturally deluded.
Jar asks for evidence because his idea of God is that God is beyond human communication and that we were given logic, reason, and reality and a charge to try and do our best. I cant argue with him totally, though I think he wont entertain the idea of communication through prayer, apart from achieving group cohesion. He is convinced that God is beyond us and that Christianity is about doing the right thing without needing the teacher in the room.
I wouldn't let either of them get me mad, however. Buz never gave up at EvC. Why should you or I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 11:09 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 11:45 AM Phat has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 284 of 722 (683278)
12-09-2012 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Faith
12-09-2012 10:51 AM


Re: oh yes they were actual witnesses
Yes the books of the Bible were written by those who claimed to write them.
There's nowhere in the Gospel of John where the author claims to be John. The testimony recounted in John is ascribed not to the writer but to the "disciple that Jesus loved" which the John author can't have been and doesn't claim to be. So, again, Faith, due to your unfamiliarity with the Bible you've made a mistake about its authorship. The Bible recounts no eyewitness testimony at all. How could it, written decades after the fact in places hundreds of miles away? It's absurd.
DON'T consider anything crash.
But I am considering it. This is the process of consideration - listening to what you have to say, and trying to reconcile it with what I already know. The problem is, the things you're saying to me don't seem to be true. They contradict abundant physical evidence; they even contradict the plain text of the Bible. You're going to have to present more evidence for my consideration if you want me to be swayed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 12-09-2012 10:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 285 of 722 (683280)
12-09-2012 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phat
12-09-2012 11:26 AM


Re: oh yes they were actual witnesses
That's insulting nonsense, phat. I'm no "hardcore atheist." I became an atheist as a Christian; how could bridges be burned? The bridges are open: my eyes can see and read; my ears can hear. Nothing else is required to receive the evidence.
The bridges are intact and I've been other them and back. There's just nothing at the other side; God is make-believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 12-09-2012 11:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 12-09-2012 11:55 AM crashfrog has replied

  
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