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Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 106 of 285 (683842)
12-13-2012 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Taq
12-12-2012 10:57 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
What experiments would you run to determine if there was this point of development? What evidence is leading you to this hypthesis?

let’s recap so that you are not just going back to the initial points we have already agreed:
1. Science does not have any data to support, or deny greater being.
2. Science is too limited to know what greater being looks like, and does not fully understand the dynamics of the human brain.

And also:
1. Science can see only a very small fraction of what is in the universe, and believes that other life potentials on other planets could exist similar to earth life.
2. That could also mean a more evolved species could be out there.

Now that that is out of the way; to address your question: it's been answered. You refuse to accept that exploring the path that leads to further experimentation concerning the issue is the solution, since we cannot directly examine what we are not sure we are looking for. That is why it is called RE-SEARCH.

So how do we do that?

I've answered this question of yours multiple times. The answer will not change.

I will believe it when you come up with experiments to test it. That is what I have been asking for this entire thread.

You are not accepting answers you do not agree with, despite the fact they are working answers to the question, and I’ve informed you there are many types of tests that can be run and performed in brain research and interstellar travel.


The data does not tell us either way if the system has a design point, or rather does not. The data is missing that could help answer that question.

You need to prove this statement.

Ok: 1. does anyone know if higher being designed anything is true or isn't, by scientific proof? No. (There is not enough evidence to prove there is or isn’t a God.) everyone examines the same information and then take many different paths of how they decide to answer the question. but the truth is, without proof, either potential is possibly true.

See? Proven.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 12-12-2012 10:57 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Percy, posted 12-14-2012 8:07 AM tesla has responded
 Message 109 by Son, posted 12-14-2012 9:03 AM tesla has responded
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 12-14-2012 12:00 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 107 of 285 (683843)
12-13-2012 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
12-12-2012 11:01 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
You seem to have lost the plot. This discussion is about YOU - i.e. the "people of faith" - finding data for YOUR conclusion. It's about YOU being offered money to find that data. The question is, Why are you more interested in ranting than in testing YOUR own conclusions?

My faith does not require a religion mister ringo. I do not have the education to perform advanced brain analisis. I do not have the engineering and physics degrees to build a better space engine. But I know where to start, and that scientists who have those capabilities are out there.

So you wanted my true honest beliefs and opinions, and I give them, and you cannot find fault in them, you just choose to hold on to your beliefs, and be the naysayers that keep science from growing like all skeptics do. you want to know what the problem is between religion and science? science is so hard set to destroy religion that it is limiting it's own capabilities in science itself.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 12-12-2012 11:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 12-14-2012 12:03 PM tesla has responded
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 12-14-2012 12:04 PM tesla has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 108 of 285 (683866)
12-14-2012 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by tesla
12-13-2012 10:16 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

I will believe it when you come up with experiments to test it. That is what I have been asking for this entire thread.

You are not accepting answers you do not agree with, despite the fact they are working answers to the question, and I’ve informed you there are many types of tests that can be run and performed in brain research and interstellar travel.

I went back and read all your posts where you mentioned brain research and interstellar travel. Turns out that's all you did, mention them. The opening post of this thread actually asks a more detailed question:

Opening Post writes:

So what if they did get $5,000,000 to spend on a new research facility? What would they spend it on? That is the challenge for this thread. Show us what the ID research program would actually need to do, what equipment would be needed to do this research, and how you would prioritize the money in this laboratory. Show us what a real ID research program would look like.

Imagine that you're competing with proposals from other Christians. How are you going to convince a board of Christian fundamentalists that their $5,000,000 should be spent on seeking an omnipresent God in space or in the brain? How would you answer their questions, which might be somewhat like these:

  • What leads you to believe God can be found through non-spiritual means?

  • What if God is at the center of the Earth or Sun?

  • What should we be looking for in the brain that would lead us to God?

  • Have you had your sanity checked?

  • ...etc...

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by tesla, posted 12-13-2012 10:16 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:07 PM Percy has responded

    
Son
Member (Idle past 2027 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


(2)
Message 109 of 285 (683874)
12-14-2012 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by tesla
12-13-2012 10:16 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Could you imagine if Einstein had said something like:"My theory is right, you just need to put money in space program to prove it" (in case you don't know, he actually made predictions about what we would see if his theory was right instead) or any other scientists said something to this effect? Did you notice that everytime you hear about a researcher, you can actually describe his work? That's the difference between scientific research and ID, scientists actually do the work whereas you expect others to spoonfeed you the work you should be doing. That's why ID isn't respected by the scientific community, you spend all your time and money and propagande instead of actual research.

Here's an example of what we would expect if ID was serious research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity
Did you notice that the whole page isn't filled with:"put money here and that's it"?

Edited by Son, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by tesla, posted 12-13-2012 10:16 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:16 PM Son has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7971
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 110 of 285 (683893)
12-14-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by tesla
12-13-2012 10:16 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
1. Science does not have any data to support, or deny greater being.

What experiments did you run to determine this?

Science is too limited to know what greater being looks like, and does not fully understand the dynamics of the human brain.

Where did you demonstrate this?

Science can see only a very small fraction of what is in the universe, and believes that other life potentials on other planets could exist similar to earth life.

Scientists also believe that life could be quite different than life here on Earth. Your point?

That could also mean a more evolved species could be out there.

What does this have to do with anything?

Now that that is out of the way; to address your question: it's been answered. You refuse to accept that exploring the path that leads to further experimentation concerning the issue is the solution, since we cannot directly examine what we are not sure we are looking for. That is why it is called RE-SEARCH.

Exploring space is not a scientific experiment. Exploring how the brain works is not a scientific experiment. They never have been. I am asking for specific scientific experiments that test hypotheses. You have not supplied a single one.

You are not accepting answers you do not agree with, despite the fact they are working answers to the question, and I’ve informed you there are many types of tests that can be run and performed in brain research and interstellar travel.

Those are not experiments.

does anyone know if higher being designed anything is true or isn't, by scientific proof? No.

Obviously, this thread is aimed at people who answer "yes" to that question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by tesla, posted 12-13-2012 10:16 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:18 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7971
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 111 of 285 (683894)
12-14-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by tesla
12-13-2012 10:21 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
So you wanted my true honest beliefs and opinions, . . .

We wanted you to describe actual hypotheses and the experiments that will be used to test them. The last thing we want is your beliefs and opinions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by tesla, posted 12-13-2012 10:21 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:27 PM Taq has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16851
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 112 of 285 (683895)
12-14-2012 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by tesla
12-13-2012 10:21 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

So you wanted my true honest beliefs and opinions....


No I didn't. I wanted to know why you're unwilling to test your beliefs and opinions.

tesla writes:

you want to know what the problem is between religion and science?


There is no problem between science and religion. Some religious people want to create a problem but they don't want to put any real effort into it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by tesla, posted 12-13-2012 10:21 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:09 PM ringo has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 113 of 285 (683991)
12-14-2012 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Percy
12-14-2012 8:07 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Imagine that you're competing with proposals from other Christians. How are you going to convince a board of Christian fundamentalists that their $5,000,000 should be spent on seeking an omnipresent God in space or in the brain? How would you answer their questions, which might be somewhat like these:

•What leads you to believe God can be found through non-spiritual means?

•What if God is at the center of the Earth or Sun?

•What should we be looking for in the brain that would lead us to God?

•Have you had your sanity checked?

•...etc...

--Percy

Anything that exists is natural to existence. What if? Well, what if? You cannot start exploring potentials without the engineering capabilities to do so. Without a hadron collider, who could know what we know today about particle collisions?

In the brain: we need to be able to interpret the codes on how the brain is storing and relaying information. It could be unique to each brain. when science can read thoughts and see or smell memories, then science can boast it know the brain, and more about consciousness.

Sanity? That depends on who is judging. A fanatical Christian can decide you’re insane for not trusting what they believe, just as you can judge a man insane for believing in anything.

If you want the specific tests that will be run, you need to talk to persons in those fields I have mentioned that could make breakthroughs in consciousness and interstellar travels. But then, I've said that once already haven't I?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Percy, posted 12-14-2012 8:07 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 12-14-2012 8:51 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 114 of 285 (683992)
12-14-2012 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ringo
12-14-2012 12:04 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
No I didn't. I wanted to know why you're unwilling to test your beliefs and opinions.

I am willing. But you cannot explore past the capabilities of science. I'm suggesting improving scientific capabilities so that tests could be run.

Edited by tesla, : edit.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 12-14-2012 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 12-15-2012 11:31 AM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 115 of 285 (683993)
12-14-2012 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Son
12-14-2012 9:03 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
If people will spend billions building a hadron collider, which they had no idea what was going to happen when the hydrogen collided, why wouldn't people spend on how to read thoughts and see dreams?

You’re skirting the importance of the concept of God, and the entire path that leads to the capability to research that.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Son, posted 12-14-2012 9:03 AM Son has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Son, posted 12-15-2012 4:12 AM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 116 of 285 (683994)
12-14-2012 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Taq
12-14-2012 12:00 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.

1. Science does not have any data to support, or deny greater being.

What experiments did you run to determine this?

For real dude? Are you going to pretend to be dumb and blind? It doesn't take an experiment to prove where scientific knowledge ends.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 12-14-2012 12:00 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 117 of 285 (683995)
12-14-2012 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Taq
12-14-2012 12:03 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
We wanted you to describe actual hypotheses and the experiments that will be used to test them. The last thing we want is your beliefs and opinions.

I mentioned a couple tests. the current knowledge and equipment of today's science cannot complete them. Science needs better capabilities first.

Hypothesis: a greater consciousness exists on another planet.

Experiment: fly to other planets and see.

Hypothesis: information of a greater consciousness can communicate long distances.

Experiment: find a common algorithm based on how human consciousness reads and writes data for dreams, communication, thoughts and the like, then scan all frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum to see if there is any similar coding.

Hypothesis: We can create a greater consciousness than our own if we build a computer designed based on the brain, but make it much larger, and input a lot more knowledge and energy. a true AI.

Experiment: sink money into AI research (programmers etc.), model the human brains communication methods. Tons of options here.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 12-14-2012 12:03 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Taq, posted 12-17-2012 11:03 AM tesla has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(5)
Message 118 of 285 (683997)
12-14-2012 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by tesla
12-14-2012 8:07 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

If you want the specific tests that will be run, you need to talk to persons in those fields I have mentioned that could make breakthroughs in consciousness and interstellar travels.

You must have been a wonderful test taker:

"What year did Columbus discover America?"

"If you want to know that you'll have to talk to someone who read the chapter."

Obviously you're not getting the $5,000,000.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:07 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by tesla, posted 12-15-2012 10:14 AM Percy has responded

    
Son
Member (Idle past 2027 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


(1)
Message 119 of 285 (684030)
12-15-2012 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by tesla
12-14-2012 8:16 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
But they did know what kind of experiments they would run when they built it. The difference is that you don't even have the beginning of an experiment that would test ID, if we gave ID billions to test their idea, what kind of experiments would we expect? You seem to have spent lots of time avoiding to answer that when a single response would suffice to get the discussion started. You don't need to be a specialist to describe the experiment, you just have to look for those so called ID scientists the same way I can point out tests for relativity despite not having a great understanding of it.

Does your answer mean that your "theory" has no testable hypothesis meaning that it is in no way a science?Because the way you've described ID research so far make it seem as valid as fairy science or dragon science....

Btw, you actually need to describe how your experiment would relate to ID, otherwise, I could just say something like :
"If we find life on other planets, it proves dragon science so dragon science is a valid science".

Edited by Son, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:16 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by tesla, posted 12-15-2012 10:44 AM Son has responded

    
tesla
Member (Idle past 2255 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 120 of 285 (684057)
12-15-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
12-14-2012 8:51 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
You must have been a wonderful test taker:

"What year did Columbus discover America?"
"If you want to know that you'll have to talk to someone who read the chapter."

Obviously you're not getting the $5,000,000.

--Percy

Why would you hire a director to act, if he's a director? Would you hire a roofer to frame your house? Even if I was a neurosurgeon, and outlined some experimentation, you here would find a way to ignore the significance of the research and how it is related to I.D. science.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 12-14-2012 8:51 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Percy, posted 12-15-2012 1:32 PM tesla has responded

  
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