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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 91 of 5179 (684085)
12-15-2012 2:27 PM


Homicide Rate Graphs
The gun homicide rate is 10 times higher in the US than in Canada and the UK:
Gun ownership in the United States is higher than in any other country:
The more guns per capita the more homicides per capita.
Aside from target practice and hunting, most guns are never used, but of those that *are* used the most likely target is family members. The next most likely target is friends and neighbors. Probably the least likely target is a criminal. Bringing a gun into a house only increases the risk of violent death. It makes everyone nearby less safe, not more.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 92 of 5179 (684086)
12-15-2012 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by NoNukes
12-15-2012 10:53 AM


No, we don't. Once smallpox was eradicated the benefits didn't outweigh the risks. Routine smallpox vaccination ended in 1972.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2012 10:53 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(7)
Message 93 of 5179 (684087)
12-15-2012 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tangle
12-15-2012 12:11 PM


what we didn't do was say that because some thugs carry knives then everyone should. That would be preposterous wouldn't it?
Of course. But there's no place for the likes of you and me, Tangle, in this discussion, because it is so bat-shit insane we cannot begin grasp the lunacy that drives it. We expect right-wing fruitcakes like Faith to think that the solution is more guns, but when you have supposed thinkers like Crash supporting this shit, that country is fucked in ways we can't even begin to imagine.
As a lifelong resident, I'm no big fan of the UK, but at least we get some things right.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2012 3:18 PM cavediver has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 94 of 5179 (684089)
12-15-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by crashfrog
12-15-2012 2:28 PM


Thanks crashfrog. My example was completely wrong. Let's change the example to vaccinating against HPV or rubella or to washing your hands after using the bathroom.
My point is only that we shouldn't dismiss gun control simply because other risks are more significant.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2012 2:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 5179 (684091)
12-15-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by cavediver
12-15-2012 2:52 PM


How many times have you shot guns?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by cavediver, posted 12-15-2012 2:52 PM cavediver has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 5179 (684092)
12-15-2012 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
12-14-2012 3:25 PM


See any news source.
We shouldn't be talking about gun control in the wake of this.
We should be talking about our mental healthcare program.
Or we should be talking about the news media responses to things like this.

This message is a reply to:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 97 of 5179 (684093)
12-15-2012 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2012 3:18 PM


How many times have you shot guns?
I have no idea. I was shooting air rifles and pistols from age 7, 12-bore on clay pigeon shoots from age 11, was teaching marksmanship on .303 by age 30 (and also in charge of the armoury), and at the same time was shooting SA80 (L85, L86 LSW, and cadet.) My experience of handguns is much less, and have only shot them on no more than 10 or so occasions (and all pre-dunblane.)
Is that more or less than you were expecting?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 98 of 5179 (684094)
12-15-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Percy
12-15-2012 2:27 PM


Re: Homicide Rate Graphs/stats
Hi Percy
Saw this on facebook
another way to look at it ...
Enjoy?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 5179 (684095)
12-15-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2012 3:24 PM


We shouldn't be talking about gun control in the wake of this.
Why not? You list other related topics that we should discuss. So why not gun control?
When is the time to discuss gun control?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2012 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 100 of 5179 (684096)
12-15-2012 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
12-15-2012 2:28 AM


Re: Second Amendment
Faith writes:
The intention was to preserve us from foreign enemies as well as possibly the nation's own standing army which historically easily becomes a threat to the people, but obviously it should be effective for these crazy individual enemies as well.
Using this logic, shouldn't all americans have the "right" to own and possess the type weapons the army possesses.
For example, tanks, rocket launchers, missles, fighter jets, nuclear weapons?
How else can we defend ourselves against the government army, navy, air force and coast guard?
Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 2:28 AM Faith has replied

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 101 of 5179 (684098)
12-15-2012 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2012 3:18 PM


CatholicScientist writes:
How many times have you shot guns
I shot 202 rifle for my university. I was the go-to guy for air rifle at the fair. Had my first BB gun at 13, hid it under my bed until my mum found it.
What point are you trying to make?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 102 of 5179 (684101)
12-15-2012 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
12-15-2012 8:22 AM


Re: The Reality
This is not about "gun nuts," I'm no gun nut, this is about a right and even a duty that is meant for the protection of the country. It hasn't always been used properly but now it's being threatened, and it will be a sad day when it's taken away from us.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 12-15-2012 8:22 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 103 of 5179 (684102)
12-15-2012 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by shadow71
12-15-2012 4:44 PM


Re: Second Amendment
How else can we defend ourselves against the government army, navy, air force and coast guard?
The ONLY way today is that citizen must use the H-bomb.
In Foreign Affairs Magazine, an article describes this new asymmetrical device which the muslims are now using.
The bomb is strapped onto a H-uman and personally delivered to those on the other side.
All that is necessary is for the tyranny to get bad enough.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 104 of 5179 (684103)
12-15-2012 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Theodoric
12-15-2012 8:38 AM


Re: Second Amendment
Actually I do know what the founders wanted and it was NOT an organized militia for the very reason that such a body can be used against the people which is the exact opposite of the intent of the amendment
You obviously haven't read the Constitution.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Yes, the PEOPLE, not an army run by the state, the PEOPLE. "Well regulated" implies you don't arm people with a history of violence or mental disorder, and they need some organization and training, but if you read all those quotes I gave and especially the article at the end you should be able to see through even your own misunderstandings about this issue.
And seem to be unable to understand the vast majority of the quotes you posted.
I must admit they look quite easy to understand on the face of them, but I'm sure you could correct me if I'm wrong. They intended to protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms, and that IS in the amendment -- the right of the PEOPLE -- it's you who seem to have trouble reading it, and the "militia" refers to this armed citizenry, not to an organized army, which, again, would contradict the whole spirit of the amendment.
Did you bother to read the article I posted a link to, about the history of the concept of a citizen army?
You are a right wing freak that no amount of reality will intrude upon your fantasy world.
Thank you, I'm sure you're an intelligent thoughtful person too.
Your revisionist view of history, unquestioning belief in radical interpretations of a iron age text and hate for other people, and the people like you will destroy this country.
Got all those nasty accusatory PC words in there, didn't you, to poison the well against anything I might say, and as usual those who call the right "haters" are overflowing with that particular emotion, like a venomous drip from your every pore. And it's your view that's revisionist. "Unquestioning?" I've spent a lot of time thinking about this issue and have been through quite a few different views of it as a matter of fact, not that you care about such facts.
But what I've said so far is very reasonable and it's your view of this particular issue that's destroying the country. To call the Constitution an "iron age text" is to have bought the propaganda that WILL kill this country. You probably don't even have a clue where you've been getting this propaganda you've swallowed.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Theodoric, posted 12-15-2012 8:38 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 12:34 AM Faith has replied
 Message 184 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2012 8:06 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 5179 (684104)
12-15-2012 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by RAZD
12-15-2012 9:15 AM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
Hello RAZD,
Did you read any of the quotes in my post, or that article at the end? The National Guard is not what the founders had in mind.
EvC Forum: Gun Control Again
Of course it's very hard to tell what matters to people here. Do they care what the Amendment says at all? If they do then I believe the quotes I've given show what the founding generation had in mind for it and it was not a standing army of any sort. The article I linked there discusses the history of the concept in a way that ought to make that quite clear.
Or is the Constitution just an antiquated meaningless document that we should throw out? Which is it. Some even say both, so irrational are people on this topic.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2012 9:15 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by RAZD, posted 12-16-2012 9:10 AM Faith has replied
 Message 186 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2012 8:11 PM Faith has not replied
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