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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 136 of 5179 (684164)
12-16-2012 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by crashfrog
12-16-2012 1:02 AM


crashfrog writes:
Well, no, you're not. You're not doing a goddamn thing to lower those deaths. Literally nothing is what you're doing.
Trying to convince others that gun control is necessary is literally not nothing.
It is literally how democracy works.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 1:02 AM crashfrog has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 137 of 5179 (684167)
12-16-2012 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
12-15-2012 10:13 AM


The fact that it happened in Connecticut indicates, to me, that this is an incredibly rare event that's going to happen in some statistically-uneliminateable small number of cases, regardless of our legal gun control regime.
This is what I don't understand.
If guns were unavailable at the kid's house (my understanding is that the gun was own by the parent) the killings would not have occurred.
How is that hard to grasp? (Not saying it is hard for you to grasp, in a rhetorical way).

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2012 10:13 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 7:59 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 139 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 8:14 AM Larni has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 138 of 5179 (684168)
12-16-2012 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Larni
12-16-2012 7:41 AM


Larni writes:
How is that hard to grasp?
My dad's favourite quote was "there's none so blind as will not see."
You won't get an answer. Just as you won't get an answer to why curing knife crime won't be achieved by issuing the population with knives.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 12-16-2012 7:41 AM Larni has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 139 of 5179 (684169)
12-16-2012 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Larni
12-16-2012 7:41 AM


If guns were unavailable at the kid's house (my understanding is that the gun was own by the parent) the killings would not have occurred.
On what basis could you say that? If guns had not been at his house he might well have still obtained them. If guns had been completely illegal he might still have obtained them. If guns had been unobtainable he might simply have used something else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 12-16-2012 7:41 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 9:09 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 147 by shadow71, posted 12-16-2012 10:09 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 170 by Larni, posted 12-16-2012 4:51 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 140 of 5179 (684170)
12-16-2012 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by vimesey
12-16-2012 4:51 AM


And if that is the case, doesn't it then simply become a case of society weighing up the overall statisitcs, and determining whether gun control results in a likelihood of greater or fewer deaths by guns for society overall ?
"Death by guns" isn't the right statistic, though, now is it? If you're killed in a situation where a gun might have saved your life, it doesn't follow that it would be classified as a gun death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by vimesey, posted 12-16-2012 4:51 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by vimesey, posted 12-16-2012 9:43 AM crashfrog has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 141 of 5179 (684174)
12-16-2012 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
12-15-2012 5:52 PM


Re: The Reality
Faith writes:
This is not about "gun nuts," I'm no gun nut,...
I don't know if there's a formal definition, but your irrational arguments should warrant you serious consideration.
Gun deaths won't stop until there are no guns.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 5:52 PM Faith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 142 of 5179 (684175)
12-16-2012 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by crashfrog
12-16-2012 8:14 AM


Crashfrog writes:
On what basis could you say that? If guns had not been at his house he might well have still obtained them. If guns had been completely illegal he might still have obtained them. If guns had been unobtainable he might simply have used something else.
Scenario 1. I'm mad as hell about something and feel tha I have to kill as many people as I can, right now. There are two hand guns and a pile of ammunition upstairs in my mother's drawer. I take the guns and kill a load of children.
Scenario 2. I'm mad as hell about something and want to kill as many people as I can right now. There are no guns in the house and I have no idea how to get one. I spend a few hours/days trying to get a gun and some ammunition. I fail because guns are not freely available in this society and anyway, I'm not so mad anymore - the mania has passed.
Of course anyone truly and irrevocably set on killing a lot of people will eventually find a way of doing some damage somehow, but without simple and immediate access to both a gun and a lot of bullets, it's not an easy thing to achieve.
It's impossible to argue that less gun would not mean less death by guns - impossible.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 8:14 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 10:02 AM Tangle has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 143 of 5179 (684176)
12-16-2012 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
12-15-2012 6:16 PM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
Hi Faith
See peek for message as posted, see Message 197 for more complete version.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : duplicate post delayed by dinner party

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 6:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 12-16-2012 8:36 PM RAZD has replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 144 of 5179 (684178)
12-16-2012 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by crashfrog
12-16-2012 8:17 AM


If you want to legitimately include that in the tally for a country that has made the private ownership of guns largely illegal, then you don't include deaths where gun ownership "might" have saved your life - you include deaths where gun ownership "would" have saved your life.
This does introduce a hypothetical element into the statisitics, but as we know from the recent tragedy (and every other such tragedy, and every other instance where innocent people are killed by a criminal shooting), the fact that the victim (or their parents) could, or even did, own a gun which "might" have saved their life, does not mean that it would have. In my opinion, the inclusion of those deaths which would have been prevented by gun ownership would not begin to make an appreciable dent in the gulf between the statistics for gun deaths in the US and gun deaths in a country which bans general gun ownership.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 8:17 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 10:05 AM vimesey has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 145 of 5179 (684181)
12-16-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Tangle
12-16-2012 9:09 AM


I fail because guns are not freely available in this society and anyway, I'm not so mad anymore - the mania has passed.
These shootings don't happen because of a passing "mania" or anger. They're not the result of a guy "flipping out" or losing control. They invariably represents months of planning prior to execution. The Columbine killers plotted for over a year, gathering weapons, explosives, and marksmanship training. James Holmes stockpiled weapons and ammunition for a year. The Clackamas, Oregon mall guy - whose mass shooting has largely disappeared from the news as a result of this latest one, and also because, having been stopped by the actions of a concealed-carry permit holder, don't fit the emerging "guns are terrible" narrative - spent the better part of a day gathering magazines, ammunition, and stealing the AR-15 before opening fire.
We now know that the Sandy Hook shooter's weapons all belonged to his mother. They weren't from out of state as it was earlier suggested. It's fine to talk about background checks, closing loopholes, or Canada's "two references" requirement but there's no licensure regime in the world that is going to flag a middle-aged suburban divorcee as an unacceptable risk. Again, this shooting happened in a state that has nearly every characteristic of the model gun control state - an incredibly strict control regime, half the firearms per capita of more than a dozen nations, including the vaunted Canada, no "shall-issue" concealed-carry permits. Everything you guys have suggested as a solution to the problem of gun violence, Connecticut has.
And it didn't prevent this tragedy.
It's impossible to argue that less gun would not mean less death by guns - impossible.
Of course. It absolutely means less gun deaths. But similarly, it's impossible to argue that the incredibly strict measures of the War on Drugs haven't reduced deaths from drugs. It absolutely has.
But that's not the sole criteria. No control measure comes for free. It's widely understood and not controversial at all, at this point, to note that the War on Drugs - the anti-drug measures themselves - have resulted in enormous human immiseration and actual death. I don't understand why people like you can't understand that a topographically-identical War on Guns being proposed, here, wouldn't have topographically-identical results.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 9:09 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 3:32 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 146 of 5179 (684182)
12-16-2012 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by vimesey
12-16-2012 9:43 AM


If you want to legitimately include that in the tally for a country that has made the private ownership of guns largely illegal, then you don't include deaths where gun ownership "might" have saved your life - you include deaths where gun ownership "would" have saved your life.
Ok, but then you can't count as a "gun death" those deaths where the victim would still have been killed had their assailant been armed with a knife or a bomb or any other weapon. Fair's fair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by vimesey, posted 12-16-2012 9:43 AM vimesey has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


(1)
Message 147 of 5179 (684183)
12-16-2012 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by crashfrog
12-16-2012 8:14 AM


crashfrog writes:
On what basis could you say that? If guns had not been at his house he might well have still obtained them. If guns had been completely illegal he might still have obtained them. If guns had been unobtainable he might simply have used something else.
.
In this case he did try to buy a rifle type weapon but because of the 2 week waiting period he gave up and went home and got mom's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 8:14 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 10:26 AM shadow71 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 148 of 5179 (684185)
12-16-2012 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by shadow71
12-16-2012 10:09 AM


In this case he did try to buy a rifle type weapon but because of the 2 week waiting period he gave up and went home and got mom's.
So the "mania" didn't pass, I guess?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by shadow71, posted 12-16-2012 10:09 AM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by shadow71, posted 12-16-2012 10:31 AM crashfrog has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 149 of 5179 (684186)
12-16-2012 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by crashfrog
12-16-2012 10:26 AM


crashfrog writes:
So the "mania" didn't pass, I guess?
We will never know, he didn't wait the 2 weeks, but went right home and got the guns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 10:26 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3774 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2015 7:52 AM shadow71 has not replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(3)
Message 150 of 5179 (684187)
12-16-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
12-14-2012 8:45 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
Percy says:
The massacres will continue as long as gun availability continues.
...and of course, I say massacres will continue as long as humans are alive. But i agree that 100-shot magazines are more easily capable of creating shocking massacres.
There is no easy way out. It's about the parents bringing up the wackos. It's about professionals in the field of psychology not identifying and informing the appropriate authorities about dangerous wackos and how hopelessly inadequate that field is today. It's about having police roaming the school halls in some gestapo-ish way. It's about making ammunition signatured and limited on a yearly basis. No easy way out. It's also tangentially about the relative risks to our children being assessed in a country that seems to suffer horribly from innumeracy, as crashfrog pointed out. No easy way out.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 12-14-2012 8:45 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 11:27 AM xongsmith has replied
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 12-16-2012 2:38 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

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