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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hi XongSmith,
Commenting about a couple things from this and your exchange with Tangle. First, simple and easy are two different things. The answer to reducing gun massacres is simple: reduce the availability of guns. Achieving this will not be easy. I doubt it's even possible in today's political climate. Second, the massacres get all the attention, but what's most important is reducing gun deaths, which are about 10 times higher in this country, approximately proportional to the greater number of guns. --Percy
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So simple that most countries have done it No, in fact, no country has done it. Other countries have simply preserved a pre-existing low rate of gun ownership by a series of restrictive laws. But no country has ever peacefully reduced its rate of gun ownership from US levels to Canada levels, and its not clear that there's any way to do so except by people voluntarily deciding they want to own less guns.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Crashfrog writes:
No, in fact, no country has done it. Yes they have.
Other countries have simply preserved a pre-existing low rate of gun ownership by a series of restrictive laws. But no country has ever peacefully reduced its rate of gun ownership from US levels to Canada levels, and its not clear that there's any way to do so except by people voluntarily deciding they want to own less guns. Oh, I see what you mean now. You mean that no other country called the USA has done it. Well that is, of course, true. PfnrrrrLife, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Yes they have. No, they haven't. Show me even a single example where a country has peacefully legislated their way from 80 guns per 100 citizens down to 16 guns per 100, the ownership rate of Connecticut which we will stipulate is the least we'd have to do.
You mean that no other country called the USA has done it. No, what I mean is that as usual, you're saying things that aren't true.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
You say that if guns were illegal he might not have had access to them.
Isn't that a good thing? Isn't it better for it to might not happen than definitely happen? Surely any chance of children not being killed is worth attempting. If fewer people have guns the chance of shootings will drop. I really don't get why civilians want to own guns.The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286 Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Crashfrog writes: No, they haven't. Yes they have.
Show me even a single example where a country has peacefully legislated their way from 80 guns per 100 citizens down to 16 guns per 100, the ownership rate of Connecticut which we will stipulate is the least we'd have to do. You mean that no country that looks exactly like the USA has done it. Of course you could wait until there are 100 guns per one hundred people and even more deaths.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3848 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
...the massacres get all the attention, but what's most important is reducing gun deaths, which are about 10 times higher in this country, approximately proportional to the greater number of guns.
Such correlations actually misdirect attention to the Cause. The major intercity murders just in the 10 largest cities are almost half of all kilings in America every year.These are drive by and intercity violemt crime stats that also correlate with the Single Mother Families. That is more evidence that broken families is the cause.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Yes they have. So show me one.
You mean that no country that looks exactly like the USA has done it. I don't care what the country looks like. The country can have any shape at all, I don't care. Just show me a country that has peacefully legislated their way from over 80 guns per 100 citizens down to 16, and I'll consider your claim supported.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You say that if guns were illegal he might not have had access to them. I didn't say that if guns were illegal he wouldn't have had access to them. Making things illegal doesn't mean that its impossible to obtain them. That is, after all, the strategy of the War om Drugs - make it illegal to use and possess drugs, and people won't use or possess drugs. How well has that strategy worked? Why would it work any better for guns?
If fewer people have guns the chance of shootings will drop. Almost nobody in Connecticut owned guns. Connecticut has a lower rate of firearms ownership than Canada, France, and parts of the UK. Again, I'm prepared to consider additional gun control measures in the US but proponents of those measures need to grapple with the fact that this tragedy happened in a state widely considered a model for effective gun control, and almost all of the measures I've heard proposed were already in effect for this shooting. What more could be done, short of nationwide confiscation of firearms? What you UK guys keep asking is basically "why can't there suddenly not be 300 million firearms in the US"? Well, because there's no such thing as magic, is why. You just can't wish that America didn't contain 300 million privately-owned firearms inside its borders. The way you achieved a largely gun-free society was by already being a largely gun-free society, and then you took steps to keep it that way. For obvious reasons, that's not something that can happen here. Not because we have the Second Amendment, but because we don't have time machines.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
crashfrog writes:
So show me one. Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997Firearm - Wikipedia(Amendment)_(No._2)_Act_1997 Just show me a country that has peacefully legislated their way from over 80 guns per 100 citizens down to 16, and I'll consider your claim supported. This is special pleading. Many countries have legislated successfully against guns. "Approximately 30 rounds per magazine""How many magazines?" "Several....er, numerous. Hundreds of bullets, yes." Four guns owned legally by his mother. Open your eyes. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Hi Kofh2u,
The chart you offered above is 20 years out of date and doesn't support your assertions anyway. Youth crime rates began a dramatic decline in the early 1990's. I told you this once before.
kofh2u writes: These are drive by and intercity violemt crime stats... In think you meant inner city? Not "intercity"? Anyway, inner city homicides, indeed all homicides, would be dramatically reduced by the elimination of guns. --Percy
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
This is special pleading. No, it's asking you to support your contention that "every other country" has done what we need to do, which is go from a country with more 80 guns per 100 people to a country with 15 or 30, like Canada. Except that you're wrong, foolishly so. No country has ever done that. Not a single one of them. If there was one, you'd be able to present it. But you can't, even though you said that you could.
Many countries have legislated successfully against guns. Well, the United States has successfully legislated against guns. We passed the Federal assault weapons ban. We passed the Brady Bill. Various states have various gun control measures of their own. The problem is, we've done everything that we can do without convening a Constitutional convention to repeal the Second Amendment. And we can't do that. And it turns out, all that stuff didn't do anything in other countries; their low rates of gun homicides after passing gun control legislation simply reflect their low rates of gun homicide before they passed gun control legislation. There's no country that has gone from 80 guns per 100 people or more to 15 except by violence and oppression. Not even a one.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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need to grapple with the fact that this tragedy happened in a state widely considered a model for effective gun control, and almost all of the measures I've heard proposed were already in effect for this shooting. What more could be done, short of nationwide confiscation of firearms? Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss exactly what Connecticut's gun laws actually were. That might allow us to speculate on possible provisions. Page not found – Twin Cities
quote: So, yes there are some possible changes to Connecticut law that would have been helpful. Sure, Connecticut ranks fifth overall, but the overwhelming majority of states don't do diddly squat. There is plenty of room to argue that Connecticut's gun control laws are not tough enough.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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So, yes there are some possible changes to Connecticut law that would have been helpful. Sure, Connecticut ranks fifth overall, but the overwhelming majority of states don't do diddly squat. That's abundantly false. There's not a state in the US where firearms aren't regulated under state law.
There is plenty of room to argue that Connecticut's gun control laws are not tough enough. By noting that other states have less strict gun control regimes? How does that leave "plenty of room" to argue that Connecticut would be more strict? You're aware, surely, that Connecticut can only pass laws that apply to Connecticut.
quote: I read today that last night, in a California parking lot, some guy popped off over 50 rounds from a semi-auto rifle. Nobody was hurt because apparently he fired into the air (not sure what that was about) Isn't it time to take a look around at all these gun crimes that happen under gun control regimes and admit that you can't actually control guns with a law?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
That's abundantly false. There's not a state in the US where firearms aren't regulated under state law. That's not what I meant. I am referring to the 31 states that scored less than 20 on a scale of 100 as doing "diddly squat". I apologize for speaking less than literally.
By noting that other states have less strict gun control regimes? How does that leave "plenty of room" to argue that Connecticut would be more strict? You're aware, surely, that Connecticut can only pass laws that apply to Connecticut. I cannot make any sense out of your comment. I gave examples of a measure that Connecticut did not adopt. I also noted that four other states have measures that are tougher than Connecticut's, and that fifth place isn't a big deal given that Connecticut rates a 58 out of 100. You ignored all of that and chose to interpret my remarks in the most ridiculous way possible. What was the point of that? Connecticut is free to adopt measures adopted in other places. That means there is room to discuss the possibility of tighter measures.
Isn't it time to take a look around at all these gun crimes that happen under gun control regimes and admit that you can't actually control guns with a law? Laws that actually try to reduce gun ownership seem to work elsewhere. I agree that laws that simply make it hard to get guns don't seem to work. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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