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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 286 of 5179 (684411)
12-17-2012 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 2:16 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
As CS has noted in the past, the legal definition of "assault weapons" in the assault weapons ban was so legally incoherent that it succeeded in functionally banning approximately zero weapons.
And because of this we are prohibited from attempting it again? Since it didn't work as envisioned we should never make any attempt again? That is a ridiculous and silly argument.
Also, as my pro-gun friend constantly reminds me, the Federal assault weapons ban was associated with an increase in gun deaths.
Documentation for this claim? If it is true wouldn't it be an argument to see which weapons were being used and consider more regulation of them? Or do we just throw up are hands and say nothing can be done? I can show you how the end of the ban has increased gun violence in Mexico.
http://themonkeycage.org/...ban-increased-violence-in-mexico
Also, correlation does not imply causation.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 287 of 5179 (684412)
12-17-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 1:44 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
CS writes:
First off, grenades are not firearms and you don't have a right to own them. Secondly, unlike firearms, destructive devices are just too dangerous.
Funny enough, you are incorrect on this, it is just super expensive to own them and you must continually renew licenses, I believe every three years to own a "Destructive Device".
M203 Grenade Launcher
Go to the section entitled "Civilian Ownership in the USA.
Now, this portion is not in response to CS, but rather just a thought I recently had while thinking about all of this....
As many of these crimes occur because someone does not properly store his or her firearm and someone else gains access to it, would it be possible to regulate and register gun safes?
What I mean by this is that individuals would not be permitted to purchase any weaponry without first having a regulation gun safe registered with the Federal government. This registration would include capacity of the safe as well. When an individual has purchased enough firearms to occupy the capacity of the registered safe, he or she will no longer be able to purchase guns until a new safe is registered under his or her name.
This forces individuals to have the ability to properly store firearms and the government could take action against both the perpetrator of the crime and the owner of the safe and gun if a crime is committed using their firearm.
This will not defeat the problem of unregistered weapons or the black market, but would ensure that legally purchased guns are able to be properly stored preventing individuals who should not have access to them from getting their hands on them.
I just thought of this today and it is an idea that I have never heard proposed, so please tear the idea apart if need be, but I would think it could avoid these types of scenarios where an individual simply takes mom's guns to create havoc...

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 1:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 2:39 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 294 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 2:47 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 5179 (684413)
12-17-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Percy
12-17-2012 2:28 PM


Oh, so you were just talking out of your ass?
"Destructive device" is a legal term.
quote:
The definition of a "destructive device" is found in 26 U.S.C. 5845(f). The definition reads as follows:
(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas, (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (D) missile having an explosive charge of more than 1/4 ounce, (E) mine or (F) similar device.
Destructive device - Wikipedia
Stop being a jerk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 2:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 289 of 5179 (684414)
12-17-2012 2:37 PM


I agree with crash and CS on assault weapons.
Banning assault weapons doesn't do any good. If I can;t get an Uzi, I can still get a handgun. Rapid-auto-fire is dangerous for police engagements, but in an incident like a school shooting, an Uzi would just expend its ammo faster.
If you ban assault weapons, history has shown that the regular sort of firearm still works perfectly well for making a large body count.
That's why I support banning ALL firearms. No hunting rifles. No handguns. No shotguns, no pistols, no revolvers, nothing. No ammunition, no guns.
Fewer firearms can only ever result in fewer deaths due to firearms, in our schools and in our streets. Some will still happen, we can't magically disappear all of the existing guns, and we'll have a black market rise up overnight based on the sale of guns and ammo...but the number of guns on the street will slowly decline, and gun violence will decline with them.
It's politically untenable. It would require a Constitutional amendment. Nevertheless, I still think it's the best option by far to reduce gun violence. Whenever I look to the UK or Norway or Sweden or, really, almost anywhere in Europe, I know that we can do better than we are today.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:52 PM Rahvin has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 290 of 5179 (684415)
12-17-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-17-2012 2:35 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Would require the registration of guns. The simple idea of registering guns seems to be a nonstarter.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-17-2012 2:35 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-17-2012 2:43 PM Theodoric has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 291 of 5179 (684416)
12-17-2012 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Theodoric
12-17-2012 12:55 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
But semi autos are fed by a clip. A clip can hold more rounds than a revolver.
A clip can also hold less rounds than a revolver. "Clips", or magazines, aren't limited to semi-automatic weapons and they don't define that category of weapons. Many bolt-action rifles are magazine-fed, for instance. A trained individual can cycle the bolt of such a rifle quite quickly.
When Eugen Stoner first met the Armalite people they were testing a lightweight caliber survival rifle.
Yes. They were testing a lightweight caliber aluminum survival rifle based on modular components attached to a central receiver, based on a rotating-bolt gas-actuated design. In other words, the exact design of the AR-15. Every M-16-type rifle is based on that design. That's the "DNA" of the rifle, in other words, and it inherits directly from the original survival rifle.
Is that irony?
No, it's the truth. Because you don't understand how guns work, you don't understand how they're designed. As a result, you don't know how to recognize how those designs developed. For instance, your completely inaccurate presentation of the history of the M-16/AR-15.
Off the shelf Assault style rifle and it is typical to get about 8" group at 200 yards.
Maybe you're just a bad shot. Why should I believe you about these figures?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 12:55 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 3:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 292 of 5179 (684417)
12-17-2012 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Theodoric
12-17-2012 2:39 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Theodoric writes:
Would require the registration of guns. The simple idea of registering guns seems to be a nonstarter.
My fault, I meant that guns also should be registered. This way the Federal government can be aware when the gun safe is full and place the restriction on the individual until a new safe is purchased and registered.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 2:39 PM Theodoric has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 293 of 5179 (684418)
12-17-2012 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Theodoric
12-17-2012 2:34 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
And because of this we are prohibited from attempting it again?
You're free to do so, but again - lawmaking is about building consensus, so you'll have to present a more compelling argument than just your assertion that the same law that failed in the past will succeed in the future.
I can show you how the end of the ban has increased gun violence in Mexico.
Mexico needs to solve its own problems, they have no representation in the US Congress.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 2:34 PM Theodoric has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 5179 (684419)
12-17-2012 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-17-2012 2:35 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Funny enough, you are incorrect on this, it is just super expensive to own them and you must continually renew licenses, I believe every three years to own a "Destructive Device".
M203 Grenade Launcher
I was responding to why they shouldn't be available at WalMart...
I know they can be had: My uncle has one, I've handled it. But he said he could only get flares for it though... we never fired it.
This will not defeat the problem of unregistered weapons or the black market, but would ensure that legally purchased guns are able to be properly stored preventing individuals who should not have access to them from getting their hands on them.
I just thought of this today and it is an idea that I have never heard proposed, so please tear the idea apart if need be, but I would think it could avoid these types of scenarios where an individual simply takes mom's guns to create havoc...
That prevents the effective use of the gun for home defense. You shouldn't have to fumble around with a safe while someone's breaking into your house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-17-2012 2:35 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 12-17-2012 2:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 298 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-17-2012 2:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 370 by saab93f, posted 12-18-2012 2:35 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 5179 (684421)
12-17-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 2:30 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
If a weapon has a bayonet lug, then chances are it is a military weapon.
I don't believe the Bushmaster .223 has a bayonet lug, but if it did, it wasn't essential to the function of the weapon as a semi-automatic rifle in .223 caliber.
Pshht, they even make bayonets for handguns:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:30 PM crashfrog has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 296 of 5179 (684423)
12-17-2012 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 2:47 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
That prevents the effective use of the gun for home defense. You shouldn't have to fumble around with a safe while someone's breaking into your house.
So you could have an exception for one personal defense gun.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 2:55 PM jar has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 297 of 5179 (684424)
12-17-2012 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Rahvin
12-17-2012 2:37 PM


That's why I support banning ALL firearms. No hunting rifles. No handguns. No shotguns, no pistols, no revolvers, nothing. No ammunition, no guns.
Fewer firearms can only ever result in fewer deaths due to firearms, in our schools and in our streets.
But the point is, that's a non-sequitur. Banned firearms doesn't mean fewer firearms, just as banning drugs in the United States didn't lead to less drugs in the United States. In fact, it led to more drugs and it led to more guns as well.
If you want to reduce the amount of gun crime in the United States, legalize drugs and make abortion fully legal.
Whenever I look to the UK or Norway or Sweden or, really, almost anywhere in Europe, I know that we can do better than we are today.
But again, the UK, Norway, and Sweden - which, like almost anywhere in Europe, have a higher rate of crime (particularly violent crime) than the United States - never substantially reduced the number of guns in their society; they simply instituted steps to "lock in" gun ownership rates at existing low levels. There's never been any country that has gone from a rate of gun ownership comparable to the United States to a rate comparable to the state of Connecticut.
but the number of guns on the street will slowly decline, and gun violence will decline with them.
Both the number of guns "on the street" and the number of gun homicides are already slowly declining.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 2:37 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by dronestar, posted 12-17-2012 3:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 298 of 5179 (684425)
12-17-2012 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 2:47 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
CS writes:
That prevents the effective use of the gun for home defense. You shouldn't have to fumble around with a safe while someone's breaking into your house.
Yes, I did not think of this negative aspect...However, an individual could remove a handgun at night to ensure the it is more accessible in case of break-in, locking it back up when there is not a risk to members of the family in the household...
...in fact, most gun owners I know keep the all of their guns in their safe except for the one that they have normally in their possession.
Perhaps, this restriction could be strictly for the purchase of large capacity magazines or similar, instead of an outright ban on assault rifles.
Really, what I am thinking is that with the current culture as it is in the US, this topic constantly breaks down into an argument, with no resolution coming through. Perhaps looking for new and innovative solutions is the plan that we must adopt.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:54 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 303 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 2:58 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 299 of 5179 (684426)
12-17-2012 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-17-2012 2:53 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
...in fact, most gun owners I know keep the all of their guns in their safe except for the one that they have normally in their possession.
So if the vast majority of gun owners already follow this practice, what's the point in legislating it? Under what regime do you anticipate creating the first law that would be followed with 100% compliance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-17-2012 2:53 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-17-2012 2:57 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 304 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 3:07 PM crashfrog has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 5179 (684427)
12-17-2012 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by jar
12-17-2012 2:51 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
That prevents the effective use of the gun for home defense. You shouldn't have to fumble around with a safe while someone's breaking into your house.
So you could have an exception for one personal defense gun.
That could work, but then, the perpetrator would just go for that gun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 12-17-2012 2:51 PM jar has not replied

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