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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 316 of 5179 (684451)
12-17-2012 3:54 PM


You guys talk about guns like they're Pokemon cards - this ones cooler than that one - or like attributes of weapons in a RPG game - 8" at 300 yards, this many rounds per magazine.....
From this side of the Atlantic it seems like you've forgotten that you're talking about extremely dangerous weapons designed specifically to kill a many people quickly. You've got too used to them, got too comfortable with them - you've normalised them. You're left arguing trivia and can't see how utterly crazy it all is.
Edited by Tangle, : Spelling....

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 3:58 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 332 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:04 PM Tangle has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 317 of 5179 (684452)
12-17-2012 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 3:39 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
No you did not register it. You had to fill out a federal firearms form, form 4473, but that form does not leave the gun store. The federal firearms licensee records it in a book and must keep the form and book for 20 years. The only time these forms are looked at is if law enforcement is tracing a gun used in a crime.
There is no gun registration in Illinois. Very few states have registration. By registration I am talking about a federal system so that the states are linked. We can link driving records why not gun registrations.
Ideally law enforcement would be able to pull up the serial # and know who the last registered owner was, The hold the last registered owner liable for how it was used.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 3:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 3:59 PM Theodoric has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 318 of 5179 (684453)
12-17-2012 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 2:52 PM


rate of violent crime in the world?
Crash writes:
the UK, Norway, and Sweden - which, like almost anywhere in Europe, have a higher rate of crime (particularly violent crime) than the United States - . . .
"... a higher rate of crime . . . than the United States"?
"...(particularly violent crime)..."?
"N o r w a y"!?
Evidence please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM dronestar has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 319 of 5179 (684454)
12-17-2012 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
12-17-2012 3:54 PM


...you've forgotten that you're talking about extremely dangerous weapons designed specifically to kill a many people quickly.
That's just not true.
You're left arguing trivia and can't see how utterly crazy it all is.
Well I think your irrational fear of guns is crazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2012 3:54 PM Tangle has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 320 of 5179 (684456)
12-17-2012 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Theodoric
12-17-2012 3:58 PM


Ah, okay, thanks. Yeah, that would be a bit of a hurdle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 3:58 PM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 321 of 5179 (684457)
12-17-2012 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Percy
12-17-2012 3:51 PM


Amazing how there is no corroboration on this isnt it.
i think crash is putting too much faith in this account.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 3:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 322 of 5179 (684459)
12-17-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Crashfrog writes:
...not at the cost of having the US spiral into lawlessness like Europe, like the UK, where home invasion robbery is "the new normal" that people accept is going to happen, it's a legitimate mode of employment, maybe you could be a mate and help the guy cart off your goods, but god forbid you be so impolite as to use anything approaching force to prevent him from helping himself to your possessions, your wife, and maybe your life.
None of that is true.
Not sure what else to say other than that.
And in response to your graphs:
Violent crimes are not gun deaths.
Armed robberies are not gun deaths.
(Even your own chart shows that armed robberies has dropped back to 1990's levels, which implies that the peak was not connected to the gun ban.)
I am sure that if you had some evidence that gun deaths had not decreased, then you would have posted it.
So, as I said, banning guns reduced gun deaths in Australia.
{abe}
"The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States' 3.0 and to Germany's 0.21." Firearms regulation in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 3:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:10 PM Panda has replied
 Message 341 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:22 PM Panda has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 323 of 5179 (684460)
12-17-2012 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Panda
12-17-2012 4:06 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
I keep hearing different sets of statistics from the two sides of this dispute so that I no longer trust any statistics. The gun control people always claim that the statistics show crimes being reduced where guns are prohibited, and the keep-and-bear-arms side always claims that the statistics show a rise in crime when they are prohibited -- which to my mind is the more likely effect. But some statistics are getting falsified. How are we to know which are true?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 4:06 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 4:20 PM Faith has replied
 Message 329 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 4:26 PM Faith has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 324 of 5179 (684461)
12-17-2012 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 3:46 PM


No, it is true.
Right, a man with a gun took cover in a store rather than shooting the guy. So then the guy shot himself because he was frightened of being shot by someone who was in no position to shoot him. And we know this because ... ?
I mean, that's almost a textbook-perfect case of how concealed-carry could abort a mass shooting scenario. Otherwise you're left with arguing for the possibility that a guy stole an AR-15, loaded up with hundreds of rounds, a side-arm, and a fully-loaded tactical load-bearing vest, bagged all of two people, and said "huh, I guess that's enough" and decided to eat one.
He fired off at least twenty shots, despite his rifle jamming, and police were on the scene within a minute after the shooting started. As to what crazy people are thinking, I don't know, but I do know that it is usual for them to stop shooting other people after a while and shoot themselves instead. Most of them don't actually conduct a body count first and check pulses to see if they've killed enough people.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Clearly, the Clackamas shooter killed himself when he encountered armed resistance.
Which he didn't.
It remains to be seen whether you'll adapt your position to new information ...
I did. First I believed you. Then I found out the facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 3:46 PM crashfrog has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 325 of 5179 (684462)
12-17-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
12-17-2012 4:10 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Faith writes:
The gun control people always claim that the statistics show crimes being reduced where guns are prohibited, and the keep-and-bear-arms side always claims that the statistics show a rise in crime when they are prohibited
Actually, the statistics show a drop in gun deaths, but the pro-gun people move the goal-posts and say crime increased.
And there is no way to separate an increase in crime from the world-wide recession: recession and poverty and crime are very closely linked.
But, regardless, what would you prefer?
A decrease in deaths and an increase in robberies; or maintain the number of deaths and robberies?
I prefer robbery over death each and every time.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:21 PM Panda has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 326 of 5179 (684463)
12-17-2012 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Panda
12-17-2012 4:20 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Nothing you've said convinces me to trust your statistics either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 4:20 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 4:23 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 328 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 4:23 PM Faith has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 327 of 5179 (684466)
12-17-2012 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Faith
12-17-2012 4:21 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Faith writes:
Nothing you've said convinces me to trust your statistics either.
Then there is nothing of substance for you here.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:21 PM Faith has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 328 of 5179 (684467)
12-17-2012 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Faith
12-17-2012 4:21 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Nothing you've said convinces me to trust your statistics either.
Then do your own research.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:21 PM Faith has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 329 of 5179 (684469)
12-17-2012 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
12-17-2012 4:10 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
I keep hearing different sets of statistics from the two sides of this dispute so that I no longer trust any statistics. The gun control people always claim that the statistics show crimes being reduced where guns are prohibited, and the keep-and-bear-arms side always claims that the statistics show a rise in crime when they are prohibited -- which to my mind is the more likely effect. But some statistics are getting falsified. How are we to know which are true?
Ask to see the source. The real statistics will ultimately originate from someone in a position to keep count, such as the police. The made-up statistics won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:10 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 4:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 330 of 5179 (684476)
12-17-2012 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Dr Adequate
12-17-2012 4:26 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Dr. A writes:
Ask to see the source. The real statistics will ultimately originate from someone in a position to keep count, such as the police. The made-up statistics won't.
You would also need to dig a little deeper as well.
You would need to understand how the police count the crimes.
For example:
quote:
The new National Crime Reporting Standard means hundreds of thousands of previously "invisible" crimes now show up in the figures.
For example, if a vandal damages a row of cars, police must now record each car as a separate case of criminal damage.
I can't find the report, but I think that spousal abuse used to not be included in the UK's 'violent crime' figures - but now it is.
Also, sexual assaults and rapes have increased massively, but not simply because more people are being attacked, but also because there is a better (though far from perfect) attitude from police to victims of rape: therefore more attacks are reported. (But I doubt that a lack of guns has caused a recent large increase in sexual assaults, considering the circumstances where most rapes occur.)
I think Faith would learn a lot from researching the statistics herself, and I hope she does.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 4:26 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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