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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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But in the real world I guess a guy carrying concealed is enough to force perpetrators to commit suicide. What's the alternative? He was driven to suicide by his remorse after only shooting two? He executed his planned suicide at the first sign of resistance. The loaded Glock pointed at him was that resistance. Textbook case of lives saved by concealed carry. You all sound so disappointed that it didn't turn into the shootout at the OK Corral, but isn't that exactly the scenario you all have said would be the worst outcome when concealed-carry permit holders try to stop active shooter events? I'm not understanding the criticism, here.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
From this side of the Atlantic it seems like you've forgotten that you're talking about extremely dangerous weapons designed specifically to kill a many people quickly. And from this other side, it seems like you've forgotten that your home is supposed to be a castle, a place of safety and refuge, not a shopping center ("centre" I guess you'd say) where people are free to force their way in and help themselves to whatever they want, including your life. I mean, that's what seems crazy to me - meek surrender to the "new normal" of vastly elevated burglary rates and hooliganism displayed in the UK.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
He executed his planned suicide at the first sign of resistance. The loaded Glock pointed at him was that resistance. Textbook case of lives saved by concealed carry. And what would have happened if the assailant had not had a gun available in the first place?The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Absolutely no one knows.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There was this one too:
They didn't fire back or anything. They high-tailed it as soon as there was resistance.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
"... a higher rate of crime . . . than the United States"? Yeah, Dronester. Believe it or not, I know things you don't know. In fact, a lot of people do.
http://io9.com/...es-about-why-americas-crime-rate-is-so-low quote: For a disaggregated view, you can go here:
http://www.cepr.org/...s/wkcn/9/979/papers/Buonnano_etal.pdf
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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And what would have happened if the assailant had not had a gun available in the first place? Maybe he'd have used a homemade bomb. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
Maybe he'd have used a homemade bomb. Certainly a possibility. If he knew how. If he was able to get the materials in large enough quantities. But let's test the prediction. In nations where guns are less available, does the number of bomb-based attacks increase after firearms legislation is passed? You've speculated, but the real world already has examples. What do those examples show us?The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I'm not going to try to talk you out of anything you want to believe. The problem for you is convincing other people with evidence like that.
--Percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But let's test the prediction. In nations where guns are less available, does the number of bomb-based attacks increase after firearms legislation is passed? That doesn't have anything to do with what this particular individual might have done.
You've speculated, but the real world already has examples. What do those examples show us? Oh, I dunno... the odds.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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None of that is true. I exaggerate slightly, but its all based on real events in the UK - prosecuting homeowners who have used force to repel invaders, awarding compensation claims to burglars injured "on the job" by unsafe home conditions, and so on. You people are fucking crazy over there about what you're prepared to tolerate going on in your homes, and I don't understand it at all.
quote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...hmans-home-is-his-dungeon.html The UK has an astronomical crime rate, double the crime rate of the US in every category, including violent crime: It's fine that you consider us Yanks to be a bunch of rootin'-tootin' Yosemite Sam's, but from my side of the pond you're the crazy ones - not only have you disarmed everybody but the criminals, you've put the law on their side, as well. Leaving your citizens so exposed to the predations of their fellow men is just insane.
Violent crimes are not gun deaths. Armed robberies are not gun deaths. I never said that they were. The problem is, a gun death isn't the only bad thing that can happen to you.
So, as I said, banning guns reduced gun deaths in Australia. But not overall homicides: Unless you think a reduction in homicides eight years later can somehow be connected to the gun ban, but it's not obvious why that should be the case.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
According to a 2012 study, the murder rate in the US is still significantly higher than in the UK.
The murder rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000 individuals.In the UK, it's 1.2. But then, your argument seems to be that an alleged increase in petty theft justifies allowing "self-defense" weapons that demonstrably increase the murder rate. That strikes me as rather odd, considering that I'd much rather lose my TV (and have insurance replace it) than lose my life or the lives of my loved ones.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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The problem for you is convincing other people with evidence like that. I don't expect I can convince anybody for whom it is an article of faith that a firearm is never an effective tool for self-defense. But it's nevertheless the case that the potential massacre in Chakamas was brought to a conclusion by the actions of a concealed-carry permit holder, without him even having to fire a shot.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3734 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Crashfrog writes:
As I said the first time you said it: that is not true. ...meek surrender to the "new normal" of vastly elevated burglary rates and hooliganism displayed in the UK."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Crashfrog writes: And from this other side, it seems like you've forgotten that your home is supposed to be a castle, a place of safety and refuge, not a shopping center ("centre" I guess you'd say) where people are free to force their way in and help themselves to whatever they want, including your life. I mean, that's what seems crazy to me - meek surrender to the "new normal" of vastly elevated burglary rates and hooliganism displayed in the UK. And the last set of lies you guys swallowed about the UK involved chimney sweeps, butlers and bowler hats. Try harder.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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