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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 331 of 5179 (684490)
12-17-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Percy
12-17-2012 3:51 PM


But in the real world I guess a guy carrying concealed is enough to force perpetrators to commit suicide.
What's the alternative? He was driven to suicide by his remorse after only shooting two?
He executed his planned suicide at the first sign of resistance. The loaded Glock pointed at him was that resistance. Textbook case of lives saved by concealed carry.
You all sound so disappointed that it didn't turn into the shootout at the OK Corral, but isn't that exactly the scenario you all have said would be the worst outcome when concealed-carry permit holders try to stop active shooter events? I'm not understanding the criticism, here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 3:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:07 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 335 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 339 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 5:17 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 349 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 5:45 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 352 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 5:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 332 of 5179 (684493)
12-17-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
12-17-2012 3:54 PM


From this side of the Atlantic it seems like you've forgotten that you're talking about extremely dangerous weapons designed specifically to kill a many people quickly.
And from this other side, it seems like you've forgotten that your home is supposed to be a castle, a place of safety and refuge, not a shopping center ("centre" I guess you'd say) where people are free to force their way in and help themselves to whatever they want, including your life.
I mean, that's what seems crazy to me - meek surrender to the "new normal" of vastly elevated burglary rates and hooliganism displayed in the UK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2012 3:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 5:24 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 345 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2012 5:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 333 of 5179 (684494)
12-17-2012 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:01 PM


He executed his planned suicide at the first sign of resistance. The loaded Glock pointed at him was that resistance. Textbook case of lives saved by concealed carry.
And what would have happened if the assailant had not had a gun available in the first place?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:01 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 12-17-2012 5:09 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 337 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:11 PM Rahvin has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 334 of 5179 (684496)
12-17-2012 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Rahvin
12-17-2012 5:07 PM


Absolutely no one knows.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:07 PM Rahvin has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 335 of 5179 (684497)
12-17-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:01 PM


There was this one too:
They didn't fire back or anything. They high-tailed it as soon as there was resistance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:01 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 5:43 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 336 of 5179 (684498)
12-17-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by dronestar
12-17-2012 3:58 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
"... a higher rate of crime . . . than the United States"?
Yeah, Dronester. Believe it or not, I know things you don't know. In fact, a lot of people do.
http://io9.com/...es-about-why-americas-crime-rate-is-so-low
quote:
The stereotype of Americans is that we are a violent lot, prone to shooting each other at random. And yet if you compare US crime rates to those in European countries, you can see that crime has been rising in Europe as it declines in the US.
For a disaggregated view, you can go here:
http://www.cepr.org/...s/wkcn/9/979/papers/Buonnano_etal.pdf

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by dronestar, posted 12-17-2012 3:58 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:23 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 394 by dronestar, posted 12-18-2012 9:00 AM crashfrog has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 337 of 5179 (684499)
12-17-2012 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Rahvin
12-17-2012 5:07 PM


And what would have happened if the assailant had not had a gun available in the first place?
Maybe he'd have used a homemade bomb.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:07 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 338 of 5179 (684500)
12-17-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 5:11 PM


Maybe he'd have used a homemade bomb.
Certainly a possibility. If he knew how. If he was able to get the materials in large enough quantities.
But let's test the prediction. In nations where guns are less available, does the number of bomb-based attacks increase after firearms legislation is passed?
You've speculated, but the real world already has examples. What do those examples show us?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:20 PM Rahvin has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 339 of 5179 (684501)
12-17-2012 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:01 PM


I'm not going to try to talk you out of anything you want to believe. The problem for you is convincing other people with evidence like that.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:23 PM Percy has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 340 of 5179 (684502)
12-17-2012 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Rahvin
12-17-2012 5:14 PM


But let's test the prediction. In nations where guns are less available, does the number of bomb-based attacks increase after firearms legislation is passed?
That doesn't have anything to do with what this particular individual might have done.
You've speculated, but the real world already has examples. What do those examples show us?
Oh, I dunno... the odds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:14 PM Rahvin has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 341 of 5179 (684503)
12-17-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Panda
12-17-2012 4:06 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
None of that is true.
I exaggerate slightly, but its all based on real events in the UK - prosecuting homeowners who have used force to repel invaders, awarding compensation claims to burglars injured "on the job" by unsafe home conditions, and so on. You people are fucking crazy over there about what you're prepared to tolerate going on in your homes, and I don't understand it at all.
quote:
But the trouble is that this kind of burglary - the kind most likely to go "wrong" - is now the norm in Britain. In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present. But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.
These days, even as he or she is being clobbered, the more thoughtful British subject is usually keeping an eye (the one that hasn't been poked out) on potential liability. Four years ago, Shirley Best, proprietor of the Rolander Fashion emporium, whose clients include Zara Phillips, was ironing some clothes when the proverbial two youths showed up. They pressed the hot iron into her flesh, burning her badly, and then stole her watch. "I was frightened to defend myself," said Miss Best. "I thought if I did anything I would be arrested."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...hmans-home-is-his-dungeon.html
The UK has an astronomical crime rate, double the crime rate of the US in every category, including violent crime:
It's fine that you consider us Yanks to be a bunch of rootin'-tootin' Yosemite Sam's, but from my side of the pond you're the crazy ones - not only have you disarmed everybody but the criminals, you've put the law on their side, as well. Leaving your citizens so exposed to the predations of their fellow men is just insane.
Violent crimes are not gun deaths.
Armed robberies are not gun deaths.
I never said that they were. The problem is, a gun death isn't the only bad thing that can happen to you.
So, as I said, banning guns reduced gun deaths in Australia.
But not overall homicides:
Unless you think a reduction in homicides eight years later can somehow be connected to the gun ban, but it's not obvious why that should be the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 4:06 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 5:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 342 of 5179 (684504)
12-17-2012 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:10 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
According to a 2012 study, the murder rate in the US is still significantly higher than in the UK.
The murder rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000 individuals.
In the UK, it's 1.2.
But then, your argument seems to be that an alleged increase in petty theft justifies allowing "self-defense" weapons that demonstrably increase the murder rate. That strikes me as rather odd, considering that I'd much rather lose my TV (and have insurance replace it) than lose my life or the lives of my loved ones.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:30 PM Rahvin has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 343 of 5179 (684505)
12-17-2012 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Percy
12-17-2012 5:17 PM


The problem for you is convincing other people with evidence like that.
I don't expect I can convince anybody for whom it is an article of faith that a firearm is never an effective tool for self-defense. But it's nevertheless the case that the potential massacre in Chakamas was brought to a conclusion by the actions of a concealed-carry permit holder, without him even having to fire a shot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 5:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 5:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 344 of 5179 (684506)
12-17-2012 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:04 PM


Still not true
Crashfrog writes:
...meek surrender to the "new normal" of vastly elevated burglary rates and hooliganism displayed in the UK.
As I said the first time you said it: that is not true.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:04 PM crashfrog has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 345 of 5179 (684507)
12-17-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:04 PM


Crashfrog writes:
And from this other side, it seems like you've forgotten that your home is supposed to be a castle, a place of safety and refuge, not a shopping center ("centre" I guess you'd say) where people are free to force their way in and help themselves to whatever they want, including your life.
I mean, that's what seems crazy to me - meek surrender to the "new normal" of vastly elevated burglary rates and hooliganism displayed in the UK.
And the last set of lies you guys swallowed about the UK involved chimney sweeps, butlers and bowler hats.
Try harder.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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