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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 346 of 5179 (684508)
12-17-2012 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Rahvin
12-17-2012 5:23 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
In the UK, it's 1.2.
In the UK it's the highest anywhere in Europe. The rate of burglary while the occupants are home is four times in the UK what it is in the US, because criminals in the UK know that they can come and go as they please so long as they grip something more dangerous than a butter knife with which to menace the occupants of whatever home they like. Why wouldn't they? It's not like they'll be shot by responding police, either.
But then, your argument seems to be that an alleged increase in petty theft justifies allowing "self-defense" weapons that demonstrably increase the murder rate.
See, this is the insanity I can't wrap my head around. A guy breaks into your home while you're there and you think that's a petty crime? I don't follow that at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:23 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:40 PM crashfrog has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 347 of 5179 (684510)
12-17-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:30 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
See, this is the insanity I can't wrap my head around. A guy breaks into your home while you're there and you think that's a petty crime? I don't follow that at all.
Compare theft to murder, and perhaps you'll see the difference.
But crash, you've focused on hyperbole rather than the argument.
The murder rate in the UK is almost ONE FOURTH that of the US!
I'd trade double the non-murder crime rate to cut the murder rate to 1/4 of its current value any day of the goddamned week.
Why wouldn't you? You'd rather have more murders and less stuff stolen? Really? Apparently stuff means more to you than human life.
Edited by Rahvin, : Whoops, switched the UK and US in a sentence...

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:11 PM Rahvin has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 348 of 5179 (684512)
12-17-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 5:10 PM


Looks like solid evidence of carrying concealed thwarting a crime to me, in contrast to the other recently offered "evidence" about why the mall shooter committed suicide.
But the argument isn't that guns never thwart crimes. It would be amazing if this never happened.
The argument is that the high prevalence of guns is the cause of the high death rate due to guns. The more guns per capita in a nation, the higher the gun murder rate. The obvious solution is to remove the guns.
By the way, the shots fired by Samuel Williams, the hero of the video, struck the robbers several times and could have very easily killed them, thereby increasing the murder rate. He could have killed innocent bystanders. I know it's not a very satisfying outcome, but if neither Williams nor Duwayne Henderson had guns then it would have become a successful robbery carried out with baseball bats but with little risk of death. The mere presence of guns puts everyone nearby at increased risk.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:14 PM Percy has replied
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 10:38 PM Percy has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 349 of 5179 (684513)
12-17-2012 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:01 PM


He executed his planned suicide at the first sign of resistance. The loaded Glock pointed at him was that resistance.
So, he shot himself to prevent himself from being shot? Why didn't he use his gun for self-defense? Oh, right, because the guy with the Glock wasn't pointing it at him, he was too busy hiding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:01 PM crashfrog has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 350 of 5179 (684516)
12-17-2012 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:23 PM


crashfrog writes:
I don't expect I can convince anybody for whom it is an article of faith that a firearm is never an effective tool for self-defense.
Nobody's making that argument.
But it's nevertheless the case that the potential massacre in Chakamas was brought to a conclusion by the actions of a concealed-carry permit holder, without him even having to fire a shot.
Yes, and don't forget to mention how we can believe what he said because we know that no one ever tells self serving unverifiable stories to the press. Your evidence wasn't challenged because of what it was evidence of, but because it was so flimsy. Check with Catholic Scientist for an example of high quality evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:23 PM crashfrog has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 351 of 5179 (684518)
12-17-2012 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 5:10 PM


I'll raise ya:
[Note that this is organised, planned crime in the UK, not the usual drug related, opportunist theft]

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 352 of 5179 (684519)
12-17-2012 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:01 PM


He executed his planned suicide at the first sign of resistance.
But there was no sign of resistance.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:01 PM crashfrog has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(4)
Message 353 of 5179 (684520)
12-17-2012 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:22 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Crashfrog writes:
I exaggerate slightly, but its all based on real events in the UK - prosecuting homeowners who have used force to repel invaders, awarding compensation claims to burglars injured "on the job" by unsafe home conditions, and so on. You people are fucking crazy over there about what you're prepared to tolerate going on in your homes, and I don't understand it at all.
No, you are not exaggerating: you are simply wrong.
http://www.usak.org.tr/istanbul/files/bcs25.pdf
Oh look!
Burglary is not out of control.
The UK has not meekly surrendered.
And I challenge you to provide a link to a burglar being paid compensation....
{abe}tbh: I have found one link where someone blindly shot from an allotment shed and nearly killed a burglar trying to break in to the shed. But a small fine sounds fair, considering he was not prosecuted for anything else. And this is the only instance of compensation I have found - and it is not home invasion. (Allotments are semi-public areas where people without gardens can grow plants, vegetables, etc.)
Crashfrog writes:
The UK has an astronomical crime rate, double the crime rate of the US in every category, including violent crime:
It also has a considerably lower homicide rate than America.
And one of the lowest gun death rates in the world.
Which if you remember the topic, gun deaths are what we are trying to prevent.
Crashfrog writes:
I never said that they were. The problem is, a gun death isn't the only bad thing that can happen to you.
Correct. You can also get run over or die of aids.
But that is irrelevant.
Making guns illegal in Australia greatly reduced gun deaths.
Crashfrog writes:
Unless you think a reduction in homicides eight years later can somehow be connected to the gun ban, but it's not obvious why that should be the case.
Do you think that a gun ban would produce an instant reduction?
I think it would take several years at least.
How long do you think it should take?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:47 PM Panda has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 354 of 5179 (684533)
12-17-2012 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Rahvin
12-17-2012 5:40 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
Compare theft to murder, and perhaps you'll see the difference.
I'm not talking about theft. I'm talking about invasion. Your notion that a guy can just break into your home - where you live! while you're there! - and rifle through your things, take his pick, and it's no big deal, nothing as bad as assaulting a guy, certainly... that's just fucking insane to me, Rahvin.
A guy is invading your home and everybody on your goofy island has just decided that's no big deal.
The murder rate in the UK is almost ONE FOURTH that of the US!
But the violent crime rate is almost three times as high.
Apparently stuff means more to you than human life.
No, Rahvin. But the sanctity of the home is worth more to me than human life. I can't understand the mindset that says it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 5:40 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 7:22 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 355 of 5179 (684535)
12-17-2012 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Percy
12-17-2012 5:43 PM


The more guns per capita in a nation, the higher the gun murder rate. The obvious solution is to remove the guns.
But, as I've said before, Connecticut had a lower rate of firearms ownership than Canada and a lot of European countries. And yet, there's a guy shooting up a school. So clearly a low number of guns doesn't prevent these crimes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 5:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 7:26 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 363 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 8:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 356 of 5179 (684538)
12-17-2012 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 7:11 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
I'm not talking about theft. I'm talking about invasion. Your notion that a guy can just break into your home - where you live! while you're there! - and rifle through your things, take his pick, and it's no big deal, nothing as bad as assaulting a guy, certainly... that's just fucking insane to me, Rahvin.
A guy is invading your home and everybody on your goofy island has just decided that's no big deal.
1) You're taking a generalized crime statistic and arguing based on one specific type of crime.
2) A home invasion is scary, but again, I'd rather lose my TV than my life. I place a greater value on human lives than on basically anything else - therefore, I'd immediately accept a higher "crime" rate if the murder rate was cut by 75%. We are arguing based on data, not on anecdote. You can't win an argument about gun violence and crime simply by saying "But HOME INVASION! SCARY!" any more than I can win that same argument by saying "But think of the children!" The simple fact is that every source shows that gun bans are closely correlated with a massive decrease in gun violence and murder. I find that statistic to be highly compelling.
3) Your statistics seem to be different from those posted by others. Why should I trust your source over others?
Oh...and it's not "my island." I live in California.
But the violent crime rate is almost three times as high.
Not according to other sources...but even if it were, would you rather have triple the violent crime, or quadruple the murder rate? Because that's the choice you're making even given your statistics.
I'll repeat that: choose between triple the violent crime, or quadruple the murder rate.
No, Rahvin. But the sanctity of the home is worth more to me than human life. I can't understand the mindset that says it isn't.
And I cannot comprehend yours. A home is a place, nothing more. Whether I meet a violent criminal in my home or at work or on the street or at the bank means very little to me - either way I might be staring down the barrel of a gun.
I'd much rather the violent criminal simply not have a gun. Violent criminals with guns are, after all, more likely to kill me than a violent criminal without a gun.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 8:04 PM Rahvin has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 357 of 5179 (684539)
12-17-2012 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 7:14 PM


But, as I've said before, Connecticut had a lower rate of firearms ownership than Canada and a lot of European countries. And yet, there's a guy shooting up a school. So clearly a low number of guns doesn't prevent these crimes.
It's like you don't even read or something.
1) CT is a small state. A person can acquire firearms very easily by crossing state lines. State laws mean little with unrestricted movement between states.
2) You're STILL confusing "reduction" with "prevention."
Gun control laws are not and never have been imagined to eliminate gun violence, only to reduce it. A single anecdote, crash, can not ever demonstrate a trend, and therefore can never show an increase or a reduction.
That's why we debate using data. Not anecdote. And it's why you've been wrong in this entire thread.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:53 PM Rahvin has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 358 of 5179 (684540)
12-17-2012 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Panda
12-17-2012 5:58 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Burglary is not out of control.
Fully half of all burglaries happen while the home occupants are present. Fully half. That's a guy breaking into your home while you're asleep, armed with who knows what - even a firearm! - creeping around your sleeping body.
I'm sorry but that is out of control. And according to your British Crime Survey, burglary is so commonplace that the police don't even bother to record it almost 60% of the time that it happens. That's page 7. Since 1981, again according to your source, violent crimes have been an increasing percentage of crimes.
Plummeting levels of satisfaction with the criminal justice system. Plummeting levels of satisfaction with the police - until they changed the questions, at which point it started to rise. (Funny, that.)
And I challenge you to provide a link to a burglar being paid compensation....
quote:
A violent burglar who called himself Lucifer and received a record-breaking sentence for his crimes won a partial victory today in his damages action against the Home Office.
http://www.standard.co.uk/...r-injured-feelings-6952943.html
Apparently burglars filing suit against their victims is so commonplace that the UK has moved to ban the practice:
quote:
Home Office lawyers are drafting an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill now before Parliament to stop criminals obtaining compensation from innocent victims. However, it is not yet clear whether the proposed restrictions would apply in cases where the householder is also convicted of an offence...The Law Commission said that only in rare cases, to be justified on grounds of public policy or to aid consistency in the courts, should a criminal be prevented from making a claim for damages arising out of an illegal act.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...rglars-from-suing-victims.html
Truly amazing. Topsy-turvy land.
It also has a considerably lower homicide rate than America.
And one of the lowest gun death rates in the world.
Well, congratulations on that, but you've constructed a society where people aren't safe in their own homes, and where criminals are allowed to file suit against those who resist their criminal predation. But, nobody's getting killed with a gun! Well, except about fifty people every year. But fuck those guys, right?
Making guns illegal in Australia greatly reduced gun deaths.
Australia didn't "make guns illegal", they enacted gun control and then at a much later date, homicides were lower. You've not made the case that Australia's gun control actually caused there to be less homicides, and if you assign the credit for the eventual decline in homicides to Australia's gun control laws but not the immediate and precipitous increase in all other crimes, you're just cherry-picking stats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 5:58 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Panda, posted 12-17-2012 8:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 359 of 5179 (684542)
12-17-2012 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Rahvin
12-17-2012 7:26 PM


CT is a small state. A person can acquire firearms very easily by crossing state lines.
It's like you don't read - as I said, we now know that he didn't acquire weapons by going across state lines. (Which state lines, Rahvin? Connecticut borders New York, Massachussets, and Rhode Island. Which one of those states, in your mind, is the free-fire gun owners paradise where Connecticut gun lovers flee to import weapons? The ownership rates of all three of those states are lower than Canada.)
You're STILL confusing "reduction" with "prevention."
Because that's what Percy is talking about. He's saying that the mass shootings will continue while guns are super-plentiful.
And I'm saying, recent events prove that mass shootings will continue regardless of how plentiful guns are, because this most recent one happened in a state where there were almost no guns at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 7:26 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Rahvin, posted 12-17-2012 8:03 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 365 by Percy, posted 12-17-2012 8:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 360 of 5179 (684545)
12-17-2012 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 7:53 PM


It's like you don't read - as I said, we now know that he didn't acquire weapons by going across state lines. (Which state lines, Rahvin? Connecticut borders New York, Massachussets, and Rhode Island. Which one of those states, in your mind, is the free-fire gun owners paradise where Connecticut gun lovers flee to import weapons? The ownership rates of all three of those states are lower than Canada.)
I said that state laws mean little when crossing state lines is trivial.
Most school shootings involve legally purchased firearms. Reducing the legal availability of firearms will reduce gun violence. This is borne out by actual data, as opposed to anecdote.
Because that's what Percy is talking about. He's saying that the mass shootings will continue while guns are super-plentiful.
No, he's not. He's saying that fewer guns correlates to fewer incidences of gun-related violence. Mass shootings are a subset of that.
And I'm saying, recent events prove that mass shootings will continue regardless of how plentiful guns are, because this most recent one happened in a state where there were almost no guns at all.
Which means you're simply using the fallacious reasoning that anecdotes constitute more heavily weighted evidence than multi-year trends of statistics.
It's really as simple as that, crash. Statistics are more useful in decision-making than anecdotes, which are virtually useless. "Recent events" do nothing except contribute a few extra data points...and give us an emotionally charged reason to have the discussion in the first place.
The statistics show us incontrovertible evidence that banning personal ownership of firearms closely correlates with a more-than-significant drop in gun related crime and murder.
Once again: choose between tripling the violent crime rate or quadrupling the murder rate. I'm being generous here and accepting your statistics - surely you can at least answer the question.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 8:13 PM Rahvin has replied

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