Does prophecy support the Bible

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You'd think he would, if he wanted his prophecies to be taken seriously.

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Wasn't he supposed to be all-knowing? Didn't he realize that bad translations would cause his prophecy to be misunderstood, unless he clarified?

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No, rather he, being divine, knew and prophesied that there would be scoffers and mockers in the latter days who would refuse to acknowledge the signs of the times when the prophecies were to be fulfilled in the latter days.

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Not really. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Christ says, "this will be preached to all nations." Those who believe in Christ's divinity say, "come on, let's go preach to all nations, so the prophecy will be true!" And lo and behold, it is preached to all nations.

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Dan, I thought you were more intelligent than that. This's not a very brilliant argument for your Bibliophobic agenda. Thousands of Christians have given their lives and died as martyrs in places like the jungles of Africa, New Ginineau and South America to get the gospel of Jesus to these tribes and nations. This's not a two millenial ongoing game or popularity contest for Jesus. It's a self scacrificial love agenda by those who know the resurrected Jesus is coming back and who are not selfishly looking only to save themselves, but to allow all to hear this good news and get in on the blessings of Heaven and escape the horrors of Hell.

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3) Jesus was dead-on correct, and the rapture is nigh.

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Bingo, except the rapture won't come til after the sun n moon are darkened by about a third and a whole lot more Christians are martyred by the 10 horned beast who "makes war with the saints and overcomes them." See the words of Jesus and the prophet John in Mark 13: 24,25 and Rev. 13:7.Geting the gospel to all nations, tribes and tongues would be impossible without the industrial revolution and now satelite TV and computers as well as world travel as it is.As I stated before the generation problem is a no brainer for serious students of the Bible. Jesus stated all these things which were to come to pass including Jerusalem again removed from the gentiles with the fig tree budding and all. It was obviously referring to the generation that sees these things which would not pass or die off. Again, you can argue till Jesus comes about failure, but the fulfillment just keeps on marching on and the skeptic's doom draws near.

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Israel didn?t follow the Lord with all their heart so they were removed from the land they were promised

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But several of the prophets including Jesus have them returning to the land and as promised to Abraham, it will eventually include all the land from the River of Egypt near Gaza all the way up to the Euphrates which is presently in part of Syria. Humanly speaking, they should've been driven into the sea handily many times over by now, but no, they're in the land TO STAY, and this's not the end. They've more land to acquire but likely Jesus will be here to finish the ocupation and set the boundaries as prophesied. Armageddon edges ever nearer!!

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Dan, I thought you were more intelligent than that. This's not a very brilliant argument for your Bibliophobic agenda. Thousands of Christians have given their lives and died as martyrs in places like the jungles of Africa, New Ginineau and South America to get the gospel of Jesus to these tribes and nations. This's not a two millenial ongoing game or popularity contest for Jesus. It's a self scacrificial love agenda by those who know the resurrected Jesus is coming back and who are not selfishly looking only to save themselves, but to allow all to hear this good news and get in on the blessings of Heaven and escape the horrors of Hell.

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AMEN------------------
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But several of the prophets including Jesus have them returning to the land and as promised to Abraham, it will eventually include all the land from the River of Egypt near Gaza all the way up to the Euphrates which is presently in part of Syria. Humanly speaking, they should've been driven into the sea handily many times over by now, but no, they're in the land TO STAY, and this's not the end. They've more land to acquire but likely Jesus will be here to finish the ocupation and set the boundaries as prophesied. Armageddon edges ever nearer!!

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How does it feel to be excited about the prospect of massive human suffering and death? Come to think of it, I remember. That was me as a ten-year-old, reading Revelation and only enjoying it because I could not comprehend the horrors it forecasts for humanity. How a decent human being could be excited about the infliction of agony upon the entire human race is utterly beyond me.As far as Armageddon edging ever nearer, the first generation of Christians was as convinced as you are. So were the hundreds of generations that have gone to their graves since then. I may be concerned about where the human race is headed, but the events of John's supposed vision are the last thing on my mind.

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No, rather he, being divine, knew and prophesied that there would be scoffers and mockers in the latter days who would refuse to acknowledge the signs of the times when the prophecies were to be fulfilled in the latter days.

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I wonder why he, being all-loving, wouldn't want to save the scoffers and mockers as well by spelling things out in plain language.

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Dan, I thought you were more intelligent than that. This's not a very brilliant argument for your Bibliophobic agenda.

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Hey, I got nothin' against Bibles. I just don't want 'em enlisting in the army, teaching my kids, or thinkin' they can get married.Bibliophobic? What the Hell does that even mean?

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Thousands of Christians have given their lives and died as martyrs in places like the jungles of Africa, New Ginineau and South America to get the gospel of Jesus to these tribes and nations. This's not a two millenial ongoing game or popularity contest for Jesus. It's a self scacrificial love agenda by those who know the resurrected Jesus is coming back and who are not selfishly looking only to save themselves, but to allow all to hear this good news and get in on the blessings of Heaven and escape the horrors of Hell.

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And bully for them. But it has fuck-all to do with whether it's a prophecy of any meaning, or whether it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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As I stated before the generation problem is a no brainer for serious students of the Bible. Jesus stated all these things which were to come to pass including Jerusalem again removed from the gentiles with the fig tree budding and all. It was obviously referring to the generation that sees these things which would not pass or die off.

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That's certainly one interpretation. See previous posts.Personally, I think it's silly to think that Jesus would bother making the statement in the first place if that's what it was supposed to mean. "And the people who see it will be the ones who see it. And yea, when it rains, these people will have water falling on them as if from the heavens..."

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Again, you can argue till Jesus comes about failure, but the fulfillment just keeps on marching on and the skeptic's doom draws near.

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That's nastily close to Pascal's wager, which I know you know is a fallacy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just a veiled threat on behalf of your god.

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How does it feel to be excited about the prospect of massive human suffering and death? Come to think of it, I remember. That was me as a ten-year-old, reading Revelation and only enjoying it because I could not comprehend the horrors it forecasts for humanity. How a decent human being could be excited about the infliction of agony upon the entire human race is utterly beyond me.

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It's disingenuous and meanspirited to imply that those of us who believe as we see the end time events happening and arising on the horizon of the world scene are happy about the death and destruction which is escalating as we speak. Also to imply that we are indecent human beings for acknowledging what the prophecies clearly have predicted is rather stupid and insolent of you, Zephyr.After all, it is the Christians who are the majority of the victims of tribulation in places like the Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan and other Muslim strongholds as well as the millions who died last century at the hands of their communist dictatorship governments. Why should we be extatic about that??The hope we look for is the resurrection/rapture when the angels gather us up to meet our Christ in the clouds to ever be with him. The suffering and hatred we experience from the world will be worth it all.

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As far as Armageddon edging ever nearer, the first generation of Christians was as convinced as you are. So were the hundreds of generations that have gone to their graves since then. I may be concerned about where the human race is headed, but the events of John's supposed vision are the last thing on my mind.

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The prophecies were'nt yet fulfilled. They began to be fulfilled at the invasion of Jerusalem and the persecution of both Jew and Christians. The ones who read the prophecies would not have expected Armageddon until other stuff came to pass.

The prophecies are not clear in any way, shape or form. They are very demonstrably malleable, and their interpretation by the faithful has been altered to fit current events for the last two thousand years. You know as well as I (if you have bothered to inform yourself) that the early Christians expected the Messiah's return just as "soon" as you do. As for the rest, it's a Friday night. Accordingly, in my stupidity and insolence, I find it a far more entertaining prospect to go get hammered than to bother with the same old pronunciations from you. I'm Audi....

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I wonder why he, being all-loving, wouldn't want to save the scoffers and mockers as well by spelling things out in plain language.

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Like I said, it's a no brainer for ernest students of the Bible. If you haven't an ear to hear and a phobic towards the supernatural, no matter how he puts it, you'll find fault. He expects you to be able to at least put two n two together and see there's four, so to speak. This's no harder than that to figure out if you put it all together objectively. I was able to comprehend a lot of this stuff at age 10 and it wasn't blind faith either. About then Israel was put on the map as prophesied and I said, hey, something big's going on here, like this two n two is equaling four.

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Hey, I got nothin' against Bibles. I just don't want 'em enlisting in the army, teaching my kids, or thinkin' they can get married.

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Bibliophobic? What the Hell does that even mean?

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Bibles get'n married and enlisting?? Now surely you know what Bibliophobic means. It's a self explanitory buzism, but certainly not originated by me.

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And bully for them. But it has fuck-all to do with whether it's a prophecy of any meaning, or whether it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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See, this's how you sweep all prophecy under the rug when you can't refute fair n square. Self fulfilling doesn't hack it. It's real here and now supernatural fulfillment. Too many fulfilled and emerging to skepticize away. They're here and you simply don't want to deal with them or acknowledge reality. You're mind is programmed to deal with materialistic impossibilities like intricate design emerging of itself but when it comes to doable Biblical prophesied fulfillment stuff you read about in your newspaper, your ear is shut off to it. To acknowledge it would mean you've a accountability to your maker and that would mean the necessity of repentance and submission to a higher power.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-21-2003]

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The prophecies are not clear in any way, shape or form. They are very demonstrably malleable, and their interpretation by the faithful has been altered to fit current events for the last two thousand years. You know as well as I (if you have bothered to inform yourself) that the early Christians expected the Messiah's return just as "soon" as you do. As for the rest, it's a Friday night. Accordingly, in my stupidity and insolence, I find it a far more entertaining prospect to go get hammered than to bother with the same old pronunciations from you. I'm Audi....

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Jesus in his Olivet Discourse in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 24 warned not to be deceived into thinking the time for certain end time prophecies to be fulfilled were emminent. In Mark 13:7, for example, Jesus warned the apostles not to be deceived into thinking the end was at hand. He explicitly explained that many things must first come to pass. Then he later reiterated same by stating that the end would not come until his gospel was preached worldwide as well as all the other stuff which should come first.So with the apostle Paul. Note in II Thessalonians 2:1,2 where he warned against folks thinking the gathering of the Christians (rapture/resurrection) was at hand. He said antirchrist and apostacy must first come. He used strong terms like, "Let no man beguile you in any wise." This alluding to the end and "day of Christ" (meaning his return) not being imminent.

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Like I said, it's a no brainer for ernest students of the Bible. If you haven't an ear to hear and a phobic towards the supernatural, no matter how he puts it, you'll find fault. He expects you to be able to at least put two n two together and see there's four, so to speak.

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Except that in this case, he expects me to read the words "this generation", and understand that due to some loops and whirls of metaphor (which conveniently crop up whenever the Bible starts to contradict itself, and at no other time) it actually means "whichever generation happens to see it."Not to mention that I'm meant to see some reason to glean a redundant meaning from the text: "the generation that sees it will be the generation that sees it".2 + 2 = 4? Try X + X = Y. Sure, if you assume going in that Y must be 4, then X has to be 2. But if you just read the phrase as it's written, X and Y could be anything under the sun.

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Now surely you know what Bibliophobic means.

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I can take a guess. It's just ludicrous. It's like saying, "if you disagree with me, it's just because you're Carrollphobic."

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See, this's how you sweep all prophecy under the rug when you can't refute fair n square. Self fulfilling doesn't hack it. It's real here and now supernatural fulfillment. Too many fulfilled and emerging to skepticize away.

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Buz, I predict that within the next five minutes, I will be drinking a beer.Hang on a sec..."HEY RACHEL? CAN YOU GRAB ME A BEER?"..."Aw, thanks hon."*sip*I hope you're ready to acknowledge my divine powers, Buz. We wouldn't want to think your ear is shut to my obvious prophetic nature. Don't try to sweep it under the rug, just because you can't refute the fact that I correctly predicted the fact that I would drink a beer.If you ignore the fact that all that happened was that I asked someone to do something and they did it for me, my divine nature will be as simple as 2 + 2 = 4.

"But the point is that we're calling into question the idea that Jesus is omniscient. You can't assume that he is as a basis for your argument."I don't see why not. People on both sides of the arguement assume that our current science is 100% accurate as a basis. However, science makes new discoveries that render outdated science irrelevant pretty often. It's not too far-fetched to say that any scientific method we currently use will be outdated tomorrow. If we can assume with outdatable science, why can't we assume omnipotence in a personification of God? Some say that idea may be outdated some day, but even if this is true then the same could be said with science, putting them on the same level. If they're on the same level, we could use either as a given.

This point comes up a lot here. As most of the evolutionists will tell you, they don't consider science 100% accurate. That it isn't 100% accurate actually has a name: tentativity. Science is always ready to change theory in light of new evidence or improved insight.Aside from tentativity, the two most important qualities of science are evidence and replication. A position must have supporting evidence, and any scientist's results must be replicable by other scientists. I don't think there are even very many Creationists who would agree that the reason God is omnipotent is because science is tentative. The two don't seem at all related. But you don't believe your religious beliefs are tentative, do you?I think you'll find that most evolutionists would argue not that your religious beliefs are wrong, but that they are based predominantly upon faith, not evidence, and that is the key difference between science and religion.--Percy

Your points are well taken, I need to double-check what I post. No, I don't believe spirituality is at all tentative, I'm just saying that even if this were so I believe it's alright to use it as a given. I'm not asserting that God's omnipotence depends on fallibility of science, but you're right that I did make it seem that way, for that I apologize. The idea is that if you can use assume with science or theology, you may do so with the other. As for the last statement saying evolutionists don't disagree with spirituality, I agree. I don't disbelieve in evolution, I just believe in it with a theistic basis. I could go on about my personal opinions and how that post needs a little less generalizing in it, but the point is there already. Thanks for the correction, though.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.