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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 466 of 5179 (684722)
12-18-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Tangle
12-18-2012 1:34 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Well I have no idea about burglary stats, never having looked for them before, but I see that in the USA in 2009, there were an estimated 2,199,125 burglaries according to the FBI
You seem to be engaged in a massive exercise in point-missing. You do understand that we're comparing the rate at which homes are burglarized while the occupants are present?
I mean, I've been adamantly clear about that throughout, but you insist on lumping burglaries while the occupants are away with burglaries where the occupants are present, even though the occupants of a home are in no danger at all when the burglary happens while they're gone, while the occupants are in incredible danger when the burglary happens while they're present.
Like I've said, this is part of the insane "new normal" of the UK; nobody thinks it matters if burglars invade your home with you inside. It's just a theft! They'll soon be on their way, nothing to worry about, here, let me help you carry off my TV and would you like the remote to go with it, as well?
Absolutely insane.
So where do your numbers come from?
Go back and look. I've presented sources for my stats, already. You can't just ignore what I've presented and then use your ignorance as a basis to say that I didn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2012 1:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2012 2:33 PM crashfrog has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 467 of 5179 (684723)
12-18-2012 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-18-2012 1:42 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Yes, you are correct he cannot calculate a percentage. However, I think that finding 138 guns for sale in working condition by checking only two sites does kind of imply that guns are made to be pretty durable. It is by no means conclusive evidence but it could show us that at least 138 guns could be sitting around from our current manufacture in 238 years, and that is only based on two websites.
And are those originals in firing condition?
Or are they replicas?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 1:42 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 1:48 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 484 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 2:05 PM Rahvin has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 468 of 5179 (684724)
12-18-2012 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Rahvin
12-18-2012 1:44 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
What?
What what? I never claimed that I knew what percentage of Revolutionary arms survive to this day. Where on Earth would I have claimed I knew something unknowable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:44 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:47 PM crashfrog has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 469 of 5179 (684726)
12-18-2012 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-18-2012 11:38 AM


empty shells are not ammunition
Hi Tempe 12ft Chicken,
Just a point of clarification:
Except that is not the case, since many gun enthusiasts know how to reload their own shell casings. In fact, there is even a wikihow page explaining exactly the steps to do so. All an individual would have to have to replenish ammunition is a small bag of shell casings. The rest can be put together pretty simply.
The shell casing is not ammunition, what is put inside it is. That is what would be banned.
Empty shells don't shoot anything.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 11:38 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 1:51 PM RAZD has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 470 of 5179 (684727)
12-18-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:45 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
What what? I never claimed that I knew what percentage of Revolutionary arms survive to this day. Where on Earth would I have claimed I knew something unknowable?
You claimed that firearms are extremely durable, and used Revolutionary firearms as an example to prove your point.
But your example was flawed. You do not know how durable Revolutionary firearms were. You brought it up. You used the example.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:45 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:53 PM Rahvin has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 471 of 5179 (684728)
12-18-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 12:57 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Crashfrog writes:
But was society improved as a result? Did people use less drugs, or did they try harder to get drugs?
Well, we know from Australia that society was improved by banning guns and people didn't try harder to get guns.
Your analogy is proved wrong by reality.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 12:57 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:51 PM Panda has replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 472 of 5179 (684729)
12-18-2012 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Rahvin
12-18-2012 1:45 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
These are originals, not replicas.
Some of the conditions of the weapons are not great, but they claim to be working...I think the oldest one that I saw is actually from between 1795 and 1810, so I guess it would be in only 202 years at the high end.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : fixed wording

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:45 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 2:08 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 473 of 5179 (684730)
12-18-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:16 PM


Your graph contained figures from both Gallop and GSS, so averaging and approximating, your graph says that there has been roughly a 20% decline in gun ownership over the past 40 years or so. I would expect this to correlate with a roughly 20% decline in total gun deaths over the same period. Anyone have any figures?
Gun massacres won't follow this trend because they'll tend to follow gun ownership rates for weapons typically used in mass murders, like assault rifles. Ownership rates for guns like these have been on the increase, haven't they? Anyway, here's an interesting article: Did the federal ban on assault weapons matter?.
It included this graph showing the decline in mass murders during the assault weapon ban, the peak in 1999 included Columbine:
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:16 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 474 of 5179 (684731)
12-18-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Panda
12-18-2012 1:47 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Well, we know from Australia that society was improved by banning guns and people didn't try harder to get guns.
But it wasn't. Conditions in Australia improved at exactly the same rate they were already improving. Homicides increased in the years that followed the gun ban. Crime rates in Australia continue to be almost twice as high as they are in the US.
I mean, sure, Australia ended mass shooting incidents (so far.) But those are rare anyway. It's like being concerned about the rate of people struck by meteors - being so concerned about it, in fact, that the diversion of resources allows an additional 10,000 people to die from drunk driving. Good job on the meteors, I guess, but how on Earth was that worth it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Panda, posted 12-18-2012 1:47 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Panda, posted 12-18-2012 2:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 475 of 5179 (684732)
12-18-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by RAZD
12-18-2012 1:46 PM


Re: empty shells are not ammunition
RAZD writes:
The shell casing is not ammunition, what is put inside it is. That is what would be banned.
Empty shells don't shoot anything.
Yes, we already had this clarified by Theodoric. However, it would be pretty simple to smuggle powder over from other countries (Mexico comes to mind, since I live in Arizona), just the lead portion can be simply manufactured in the home or smuggled, primers can be smuggled relatively easily as well, and the casings can be saved or found (Go to the woods, and you can find 1000 casings on the ground in under two hours, they are literally everywhere).

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2012 1:46 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 2:10 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 497 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2012 2:40 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 476 of 5179 (684733)
12-18-2012 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Rahvin
12-18-2012 1:47 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
You claimed that firearms are extremely durable, and used Revolutionary firearms as an example to prove your point.
And firearms are extremely durable. They're an extremely durable class of goods. For instance, firearms from the Revolutionary war can still be fired.
You do not know how durable Revolutionary firearms were.
I've not made any claims whatsoever about the durability of Revolutionary firearms. None at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:47 PM Rahvin has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 477 of 5179 (684734)
12-18-2012 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by kofh2u
12-18-2012 11:44 AM


post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
Hi Kofh2u
Go figure.
Ever heard of the Coincidental Correlation (post hoc ergo propter hoc) logical fallacy?
quote:
Definition:
The name in Latin means "after this therefore because of this". This describes the fallacy. An author commits the fallacy when it is assumed that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other.
The crime rate in America is almost nil except for inner city America where the murders take place and the WELFARE SYSTEM incubates fatherless kids whio never recognize authority figures thereafter.
What makes "inner city America" different from other parts of the city? Employment? Salaries? Would not poverty wages or less logically cause both and increase in welfare and crime?
Further discussion should be a new topic. This is not related to gun control.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : off topic

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by kofh2u, posted 12-18-2012 11:44 AM kofh2u has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:55 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 478 of 5179 (684735)
12-18-2012 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by RAZD
12-18-2012 1:53 PM


Re: post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
Ever heard of the Coincidental Correlation (post hoc ergo propter hoc) logical fallacy?
You mean like "we banned guns, and then murders were lower after that"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2012 1:53 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Panda, posted 12-18-2012 2:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 479 of 5179 (684736)
12-18-2012 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:51 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Crashfrog writes:
But it wasn't. Conditions in Australia improved at exactly the same rate they were already improving. Homicides increased in the years that followed the gun ban. Crime rates in Australia continue to be almost twice as high as they are in the US.
But, as usual, you avoid the actual point of this thread: gun deaths were greatly reduced.
Gun deaths. Not car deaths. Not drug deaths. Not crime rates. Not homicides.
GUN deaths (or firearm homicides and firearm suicides if that helps you).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...n-control-work-in-australia
quote:
...Australia’s gun control regime, first passed in 1996 in response to a massacre in Tasmania that left 35 dead. The law banned semiautomatic and automatic rifles and shotguns. It also instituted a mandatory buy-back program for newly banned weapons.
quote:
So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law’s effectiveness.
People that know what they are talking about disagree with you.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:51 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 2:02 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 480 of 5179 (684737)
12-18-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:55 PM


Re: post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
Crashfrog writes:
You mean like "we banned guns, and then murders were lower after that"?
I don't recognize this text from anyone else's post, but you attribute it to someone. Can you show me where they made this remark?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 2:03 PM Panda has replied

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