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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Crashfrog writes: You seem to be engaged in a massive exercise in point-missing. You do understand that we're comparing the rate at which homes are burglarized while the occupants are present? So your hypothesis is that because the UK population isn't armed, burglars don't concern themselves with whether anyone is home or not. Well that's interesting, considering this obvious fact:
Occupancy. Most burglars do not target occupied houses, taking great care to avoid them. Some studies suggest burglars routinely ring doorbells to confirm residents' absence. How long residents are away from home is a strong predictor of the risk of burglary Burglary of Single-family Houses | ASU Center for Problem-Oriented Policing | ASU Ok so we've established that burglary rates are identical between countries and I've shown you my workings. I can't find numbers on occupied burglary in the UK but the FBI tell us that it happens in 60% of all burglaries in the USA.http://www.homesecurityresearch.com/home_burglary_facts.php I'd be amazed if it was much different in the UK - but you presumably do so can you share please.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi again Tempe 12ft Chicken
However, it would be pretty simple to smuggle powder over from other countries (Mexico comes to mind, since I live in Arizona), ... An extra step that is open to police interdiction and your conviction ... if it is illegal to have ammunition.
... just the lead portion can be simply manufactured in the home or smuggled, ... Another extra step necessary, and one that leaves you open to some serious health issues (Lead poisoning - Wikipedia)
... primers can be smuggled relatively easily as well, ... Another extra step that is open to police interdiction and your conviction ... if it is illegal to have ammunition. If police put up road blocks between you and a store, and kept adding road blocks on streets you use then it becomes much more difficult and time consuming to get to that store, and your need to go there would have to be high for you to continue to get there.
... and the casings can be saved or found (Go to the woods, and you can find 1000 casings on the ground in under two hours, they are literally everywhere). Curiously, not in my experience here. I've looked -- as I look for mushrooms on day hikes -- so this is not universally true. I also look for arrowheads with little luck. Plus IF a lot of people -- gun owners -- were collecting shell casings, their availability in this regard would drop off rapidly. Again the issue arises on how many times a casing can be used before it fails. The idea is not to eliminate, but to make difficult, the possession of large quantities of ammunition that could be used in a rampage. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 356 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
RAZD writes: Curiously, not in my experience here. I've looked -- as I look for mushrooms on day hikes -- so this is not universally true. I also look for arrowheads with little luck. Plus IF a lot of people -- gun owners -- were collecting shell casings, their availability in this regard would drop off rapidly. Definitely could be location specific. As a resident of Arizona, one of the states with the loosest gun laws, shooting with any type of weapon is not frowned upon in National Forests (except during our dry season). This is where a lot of individuals in this area go to blow off a little steam. Yes, the availability would drop off, but do we really want to fully disarm the law-abiding population and allow them to wait for it to drop off, while those who do not obey laws collect the means to make more ammo? At least in AZ. Lol.
RAZD writes: If police put up road blocks between you and a store, and kept adding road blocks on streets you use then it becomes much more difficult and time consuming to get to that store, and your need to go there would have to be high for you to continue to get there. That is just it...according to many people that I know who own guns, they will not give them up. For them the need is high and they will want to continue to utilize firearms for whatever purpose. Also, for those planning something deadly the need is also high. The individuals that the need is not high for are those who would then need protection from the illegally gained firearms.
RAZD writes: The idea is not to eliminate, but to make difficult, the possession of large quantities of ammunition that could be used in a rampage. Right, but why not make the process of obtaining a gun more difficult. Requiring guns to be registered, gun safes to be owned before guns can be purchased, and limiting ammo (both capacity and amount allowed to be held at once by a single person) could serve the same purpose without disarming the population of law-abiding citizens who do not use their guns for incorrect purposes. Someone earlier mentioned that Guns coming from Mexico are made in the US, so if we ban guns, our manufacturers will still be selling items to other countries, including Mexico. These guns will then find their way back into the system through the black market. A blanket ban is not the answer for this country but rather better regulation and better mental health treatment are what we should really be looking for.The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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vimesey Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Wow Tangle !! We have some astonishing burglars over here in Blighty !
The FBI tells us that 60% of burglaries in the US are occupied burglaries and Crash tells us that our rate of occupied burglaries is 4 times that rate ! Our burglars are managing to burgle occupied houses 240% of the time ! We're superhuman over here ! Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
Crash - you have to enlarge to salient points of the graph. You cant get away with white non-grided graphs. You should be ashamed of yourself for foisting this stupid graphic on us. Ashamed!
Edited by xongsmith, : okay typos hit me baqd here- xongsmith, 5.7d
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
Crash wonders:
Nobody had any response so I thought we were in agreement. Maybe we were preoccupied with staggering back in aghast? - xongsmith, 5.7d
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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That and he gives no source. We have no way to know if the data is correct or something he or someone else pulled out of their ass.
ABEWe don't even know if the chart is for Australia. Nothing anyone claims has any validity if they are not welling to present their sources. This is one of a long list of things that Crash threw out without any support. He reminds me of a monkey in zoo. Flinging shit as he does a crash gallop. He has out gished Duane Gish. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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Found his source. Amazing it doesnt agree with him.
quote: I guess that is why he didn't give a source. Edited by Theodoric, : forgot to bold as in originalFacts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Fuck those kids, right? Which kids? I don't follow; you're clearly trying to evade the question. Answer it, instead: if we reduce gun deaths, but increase stabbing deaths by more, why is that a good thing? Shouldn't the goal be less homicides without regard to how they're committed?
They weren't. They were, though:
http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html It's funny how you link without quoting or showing, describing it one way; when I actually go there and look, the truth is the opposite. Please, when you discuss with me, remember that misrepresenting your sources violates the forum guidelines.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Oh, I see: no-one said it. Oh, I see - so when you said that I attributed this to "someone", you were saying something you knew not to be true. There's a name for what that's called, but I don't seem to be allowed to tell you what it is. Perhaps you can use your imagination.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Which kids? Seriously ?Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2
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Strange how that line goes down over time.
You're the only one who insists that a gun ban is supposed to create immediate results. But your own stats show that homicides declined over time after banning firearms. 350 homicides in 1996...roughly 250 in 2010. That's a success if I've ever seen one.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Is it completely impossible for you to comprehend the not-so-subtle differences in gun-related killings between the UK and the US? The latter has a bit over 4 times the population but 600 times the gun-related deaths. No matter how you try to insult your way around those numbers you are not successful. I'm not comparing the US with the UK, I was trying to understand what happened when the UK took away people's guns, and the material I found plus the statistics Tangle posted all suggest they got an increase in gun crime during the years immediately following the ban. That includes the graph in the report he posted. If the graph doesn't give an accurate picture then somebody needs to post statistics that actually reflect something meaningful. So far all the statistics posted here look untrustworthy.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So your hypothesis is that because the UK population isn't armed, burglars don't concern themselves with whether anyone is home or not. Well, no. That's not my hypothesis, it was Rahvin's:
quote: You've jumped into a conversation I've been having with him.
I'd be amazed if it was much different in the UK - but you presumably do so can you share please. I've already done so. Again, Tangle, you can't maintain a studied ignorance of my sources and then claim that I've not provided any. I'm not required to repeat myself to every newcomer. If this is a conversation you want to be a part of, it's your responsibility to get caught up.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Crash - you have to enlarge to salient points of the graph. You cant get away with white non-grided graphs. I don't understand what you're talking about, but it strikes me that if the only complaint you have about my numbers is that they're poorly formatted, you've conceded my major points.
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