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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 541 of 5179 (684847)
12-18-2012 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Theodoric
12-17-2012 10:09 AM


Re: Removal of Constitutional rights
1st Amendment
We now have first amendment zones in this country
4th Amendment
Slowly been chipped away for years, but the Patriot Act completely eviscerated this amendment. All that needs to be made is a claim of national Security and law enforcement has very few limits on searches.
National Security Letters
Current laws do not adhere to the 4th amendment.
I for one think the way free speech is handled in this country is a down-right disgusting slap in the face to all the people who fought and died to free the fledgling colonies from their British king.
And the Patriot Act is not only unconstitutional, but immoral; it is also one of the great examples of why a citizen's right to bear arms is so importantto recoil against encroaching tyranny.
And you might have known these things about some of the 'American people at large' if you weren't quite so busy arguing against positions no one has taken...
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2012 10:09 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Panda, posted 12-18-2012 11:19 PM Jon has not replied
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 542 of 5179 (684848)
12-18-2012 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Jon
12-18-2012 10:44 PM


Re: Removal of Constitutional rights
Jon writes:
And the Patriot Act is not only unconstitutional, but immoral; it is also one of the great examples of why a citizen's right to bear arms is so importantto recoil against encroaching tyranny.
I agree that the Patriot Act (from the small amount about it I have read) is morally questionable at best.
But what effect has the ability to bear arms had on it?
(This is not rhetorical. I don't know the answer, and there was no mention of guns or arms on the Wiki page.)
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Jon, posted 12-18-2012 10:44 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 543 of 5179 (684850)
12-18-2012 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Panda
12-18-2012 11:19 PM


Re: Removal of Constitutional rights
But what effect has the ability to bear arms had on it?
None. They just like to pretend that, when the mythical day comes, they will have their stockpile of guns ready to fight off the gestapo (just like in the movies) when they come to round them up. What they don't realize is that right now our rights are being eroded, but it's happening on Capitol Hill and there will never be a revolution because we are too content, fat and lazy. Plus, TV hasn't told us it's time to revolutionize.
That's why we need guns. Oh, and to protect ourselves from the home invasion that hasn't happened and will likely never happen because I live in a rich white neighborhood.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 544 of 5179 (684851)
12-18-2012 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Jon
12-18-2012 10:44 PM


Re: Removal of Constitutional rights
I for one think the way free speech is handled in this country is a down-right disgusting slap in the face to all the people who fought and died to free the fledgling colonies from their British king.
I think in your zeal, you have not done justice to the history of the first amendment. At the time of its passing the first amendment was a rather weak and ineffectual bit of protection.
It's true that free speech is not correctly protected today, but the first amendment is much stronger and is treated with much more respect now than it was at its time of adoption. For example, many provisions of the Sedition Act of 1798 would be found unquestionably be found unconstitutional today. Further, the first amendment had zero weight against state action at the time of its adoption. Slave states routinely censored anti-slavery books and pamphlets in the 18th and 19th century.
If anything, I think people from the late 18th century would be quite appalled at much of what is considered protected speech these days. They might indeed be taken aback by the shredding of the fourth amendment, but most likely they would think that our approach to the first amendment was incredibly naive.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Jon, posted 12-18-2012 10:44 PM Jon has not replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 545 of 5179 (684873)
12-19-2012 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by Tangle
12-18-2012 5:37 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
I'm extremely sceptical about all claims made that contradict personal experience, but I am totally open to having my mind changed by the facts.
EVERYBODY says that.
But then they will argue that Statisics lie, or that Correlaton isn't Causation.
These replies are a mere come-back, ignoring their own loss for any evidence against that correlation/causation, in the particular case,
They pretend to blindnessm failing to "see" the correlation actually confirms the Cause/Effect relationship for which the Stats were supplied.
For most people, they believe as long as they have any kind of retort to the evidence, they can maintain their original position, and avoid what they take as embarrassment for nothing being on the right side of the Truth, (i.e.; hate to admit they were wrong).
Like, I presented Stats that Single Mothers raise violent kids who are those responsible for 70% of the murders by guns, not the guns.
Percy says that doesn't follow because crime, in general, is down lower than in 1970-1990.
Notice that this has no relationship to the Statistics.
Even with crime down, 70% of the violent crime is caused by people who were raised without a father living with the family, (or worse, there was a divorce and a step father).
When I show that lower crime is ALSO correlated with lower numbers of Single Mothers and fewer illegitimate birth when Legal Abortion and Planned Parenthood started to kill off half the fatherless criminals, (10-15 years BEFORE the crime rate dropped), Percy does not change his opinion that he is right, nor support the truth of what I say about Guns don't kill, fatherless kids do.
Fewer fatherless kids were born once abortion was legal, starting in 1972, with Roe VS Wade.
In FACT, exactly half the 3 million illegitimate pregnacies were terminated before birth, and the violent crime dropped in half, also, starting 10-15 years hence, when there would have been twice the fatrherless teenagers other wise.
Jesus said he is The Truth and that is he way we need go.
The message was so imoortant, because as youy see here, peple are offended when wrong, and indirecly hate the Truth, necause it is an embarrassment to them.
This why America needs Jesus, i.e.; The Truth.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2012 5:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 546 of 5179 (684874)
12-19-2012 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by hooah212002
12-18-2012 11:24 PM


Re: Removal of Constitutional rights
That's why we need guns. Oh, and to protect ourselves from the home invasion that hasn't happened and will likely never happen because I live in a rich white neighborhood.
... so, then you are well aware that the crime is in poor inner city neighborhood where fatherless boys are raised by Single Mothers who can not represent that authority figure which is so necessary to instilling respect for rules in gnral.
Why are you Off Topic about the Constitution, yet ignoring these Facts which I present that show "Guns don't kill, fatherless boys do," sooner or later?????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by hooah212002, posted 12-18-2012 11:24 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 547 of 5179 (684877)
12-19-2012 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Faith
12-18-2012 4:00 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
quote:
I'm not comparing the US with the UK, I was trying to understand what happened when the UK took away people's guns, and the material I found plus the statistics Tangle posted all suggest they got an increase in gun crime during the years immediately following the ban. That includes the graph in the report he posted. If the graph doesn't give an accurate picture then somebody needs to post statistics that actually reflect something meaningful. So far all the statistics posted here look untrustworthy.
Youve already been replied by others. If speed limits are introduced, it is likely that traffic offences will increase. That is exactly what happened in the UK - things that previously were not crime became such. Violent crime and especially gun-related deaths decreased OTOH significantly. That is what matters the most.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 4:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by kofh2u, posted 12-19-2012 8:07 AM saab93f has not replied
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 548 of 5179 (684883)
12-19-2012 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by saab93f
12-19-2012 7:47 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Youve already been replied by others. If speed limits are introduced, it is likely that traffic offences will increase. That is exactly what happened in the UK - things that previously were not crime became such. Violent crime and especially gun-related deaths decreased OTOH significantly. That is what matters the most.
Same thing happened in NYC whne the police emphaxied authroity by arresting people for what was even disorderly conduct and petty stuff.
Crime fell to the point that NYC was safe when it had been the crime capital of the USA prviously.
What we saw happen was that the poiceman confronted the wise guys, the young people raised fatherless in Single Mother Families.
Before they were encouraged to think they could get away without retraints, they meet the "man."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by saab93f, posted 12-19-2012 7:47 AM saab93f has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 549 of 5179 (684884)
12-19-2012 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by saab93f
12-19-2012 7:47 AM


Lose Your Gun rights, Expect Loss of all Your Other Freedoms
Youve already been replied by others.
Then why add yours to the bunch?
If speed limits are introduced, it is likely that traffic offences will increase. That is exactly what happened in the UK - things that previously were not crime became such. Violent crime and especially gun-related deaths decreased OTOH significantly. That is what matters the most.
Lotta clever logic there. The reality is something quite different, ACCORDING to the citizens of the UK and of Australia who were deprived of their guns, who were interviewed on the videos I linked somewhere back there.
The reality is that law-abiding gun-owning citizens have been deprived of their means of self-defense while crime has risen and made them and everybody else victims of criminals.
It could be, very likely could be, that forces of tyranny against the entire nations of the UK and Australia are just waiting in the wings to bring you all into bondage, tyrannies that few have the sense to anticipate these days, that laws allowing citizen possession of guns are meant to restrain. Too late now. You're all sitting ducks now.
It could happen very soon in the US as well, certainly looks like the Left is building up to that and soon the Second Amendment will be history. Sad to see the west go down like this but we've seen it coming for years, at least Christian have, who are the only ones who have any idea WHY all this is happening.
=======
ABE: And just as an afterthought, I was responding to statistics posted by Tangle, and if they didn't reflect the REAL effect of a real rise in criminality from the gun ban but only this nonsense about some irrelevant initial fake effect, this illusion of higher criminality, WHY POST SUCH STATISTICS AT ALL?
This is what I was complaining about way back there. The statistics are not to be trusted, as in this case they don't really reflect anything meaningful; also you can find statistics on both sides of this, and on top of that it looks like anyone can come along and make them mean whatever you want them to mean anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by saab93f, posted 12-19-2012 7:47 AM saab93f has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by kofh2u, posted 12-19-2012 10:20 AM Faith has not replied
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 550 of 5179 (684885)
12-19-2012 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by kofh2u
12-19-2012 7:04 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
kofh2u writes:
EVERYBODY says that.
Everybody has beliefs that they have learned from their own experience and it's quite hard to shift them - and so it should be. If it was different, people would be in a daze of indecision about the simplest of things.
One way that people's minds are changed is by hearing people with real knowledge speak rationally about it. There are some people here that have changed my mind - or at least made me think in a different way about things. They are the people that Ive learned to trust and respect through their arguments over time.
Sadly you're not amongst them because you have consistently posted the most ludicrous, nonsensical, un-evidenced bollox I've heard for a very long time.
But then they will argue that Statisics lie, or that Correlaton isn't Causation.
They will argue that quite rightly - because sadly statistics can, and often are, used to lie and correlation most definitely is not causation. As you are very well aware, being a practitioner of the bent art.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by kofh2u, posted 12-19-2012 7:04 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by kofh2u, posted 12-19-2012 10:05 AM Tangle has not replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 551 of 5179 (684905)
12-19-2012 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by Tangle
12-19-2012 8:19 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
kofh2u writes:
EVERYBODY says that.
Everybody has beliefs that they have learned from their own experience and it's quite hard to shift them - and so it should be. If it was different, people would be in a daze of indecision about the simplest of things.
One way that people's minds are changed is by hearing people with real knowledge speak rationally about it. There are some people here that have changed my mind - or at least made me think in a different way about things. They are the people that Ive learned to trust and respect through their arguments over time.
Sadly you're not amongst them because you have consistently posted the most ludicrous, nonsensical, un-evidenced bollox I've heard for a very long time.
But then they will argue that Statisics lie, or that Correlaton isn't Causation.
They will argue that quite rightly - because sadly statistics can, and often are, used to lie and correlation most definitely is not causation. As you are very well aware, being a practitioner of the bent art.
1) Silly to say the same thing about you of course, ...
2) But I do not remember you actually responding directly to anything which you now refer to simply as "the most ludicrous, nonsensical, un-evidenced bollox you've heard for a very long time."
Do you hav an example?
3) I suspect you are correct, in that it has been a long time that you have been seeped in fallacies and misinterprations of the scripture and even sociological nonsense concerning the gun issues in America.
That is exactly why you find it impossible to even entertain ideas new to you.
They strike at the very core of your fantasy constructs that you have become so secure in, fearing a loss into "a daze of indecision about the simplest of things."
4) But that is EXACTLY the meaning of Born Again, when you SEE the light of the truth, and, like St Paul, are blinded and lost at first, then recovered anew.
5) Facts can be replaced by opinion and argument using the rule that we can dismiss evidence that correlates based upon the easy out of reponding that there are cases where Cause is not related to the correlation.
6) What I have presented about Single Mothers, the violence of the kids they raise, and the social problems of Fatherlessness is not only correlated facts but widely accepted causation today.
Here are some sources that an open minded person would examine first before dismissing the correlation:
Statistics on Fatherlessness
CHILDREN NEED BOTH PARENTS
It’s a Fact
Here’s why:
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census).
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes.
(Source: Center for Disease Control).
80% of rapist motivated by displaced anger come from fatherless homes. (Source:
Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14, pp. 403-26).
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. (Source: National Principals Assoc. Report on the State of High Schools).
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. (Source: Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. Of Corrections, 1992).
These statistics translate to mean that children from fatherless homes are:
5 times more likely to commit suicide
32 times more likely to run away
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
14 times more likely to commit rape
9 times more likely to drop out of high school
20 times more likely to end up in prison
Children from fatherless homes are*:
Children from "fatherless families of single mother" homes are*:
15.3 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
4.6 times more likely to commit suicide
6.6 times more likely to become teenaged mothers
24.3 times more likely to run away
15.3 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
6.3 times more likely to be in a state-operated institutions
10.8 times more likely to commit rape
6.6 times more likely to drop out of school
15.3 times more likely to end up in prison while a teenage
73% of adolescent murderers come from mother only homes
6.3 times more likely to be in state operated institutions
Daughters who live in mother only homes are 92% more likely to divorce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Tangle, posted 12-19-2012 8:19 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2012 10:29 AM kofh2u has replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 552 of 5179 (684906)
12-19-2012 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Faith
12-19-2012 8:16 AM


Re: Lose Your Gun rights, Expect Loss of all Your Other Freedoms
The reality is that law-abiding gun-owning citizens have been deprived of their means of self-defense while crime has risen and made them and everybody else victims of criminals.
It could be, very likely could be, that forces of tyranny against the entire nations of the UK and Australia are just waiting in the wings to bring you all into bondage, tyrannies that few have the sense to anticipate these days, that laws allowing citizen possession of guns are meant to restrain. Too late now. You're all sitting ducks now.
It could happen very soon in the US as well, certainly looks like the Left is building up to that and soon the Second Amendment will be history. Sad to see the west go down like this but we've seen it coming for years, at least Christian have, who are the only ones who have any idea WHY all this is happening.
EXACTLY...
Jerry BVentura, the ex-governor, i=has been investigting the Homeland Security agendas which included buy 1 billion bullets under s federal contract.
he wondered why?
That is enough ammo to kill every American 3X, and to wipe out all Islam.
They also have built fenced "camps": that have space provided for massive housing of thousands and thosands of people behind double barb wired fences with search lights place around them.
What is THAT all about?
Then, at some facilities, Ventura documents thousands of plastic coffins stack high in thousands of piles .
?
Below is the Video that was stopped from airing on TV:
USA — FEMA Camps — Police State — PART 1 of 3 ( Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura )
Uploaded by gfde08
PLAYLIST PART 1+2+3 https://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=8674800A66E3234B
Former Gov. Jesse Ventura and his crew at Conspiracy Theory have blown the FEMA camp issue wide open in a truly groundbreaking episode from the program's second season on TruTV. The "Police State" episode proves once and for all that the feds have trained to take on American citizens, planned for riots and disasters and made preparations to maintain order at any cost.
This episode of Conspiracy Theory is the largest and most in-depth investigation into FEMA camps to date— and it is scheduled to air on television. Radio host and filmmaker Alex Jones returns to the series yet again, as the team takes you to confirmed on-the-ground facilities, confronts the legislators who authorized FEMA camps and breaks down the full-scale technologically-integrated police state that includes Fusion Centers, FEMA, the Department of Homeland Security and more.
At one of many real and verified FEMA locations, Jesse Ventura and Alex Jones approach a "Residential Center" run by Homeland Security in central Texas where they find locked doors, double-fences and escape warnings around the entire perimeter. Further inside the facility, they witness a playground complex, swings and slides for children. The crew walks up to the front door and attempts to get some answers. But the officials refuse to either confirm or deny the facility's purpose, including whether or not American citizens are being held inside. However, our past investigations into this facility reveal that it has confined both children and adults, including immigrants, refugee seekers and American citizens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 12-19-2012 8:16 AM Faith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 553 of 5179 (684907)
12-19-2012 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 530 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 5:42 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Well I've spent a happy hour or ten, trawling for information on occupied burglary in the UK and I expect the only authoritative source is the the Home Office's Statistics that come from two sources
The British Crime Survey
The Police Recorded Crime Data
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/.../user-guide-crime-statistics
This is enormous and complex but there is a downloadable spreadsheet which attempts to breakdown the components each crime by interviewing victims of it.
So in spreadsheet 1.8 of the burglary section we have:
Someone at home 59
At home and unaware 26
At home and aware but did not see offender(s) 6
At home and aware and did see offender(s) 27
No one at home 41
It's an extremely small sample so it may not be much use to us - but if it happens to be representative, 59% of UK burglaries are occupied at the time.
That feels too high to me but I have no other data.
So far then we have the USA and UK having equal burglary rates but with the US having 28% occupied and the UK with 59%. A factor of two not 4.
I can not tell whether the data from the two countries can be compared like this because I don't know enough about how burglary is classified and counted in each country.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:42 PM crashfrog has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 554 of 5179 (684909)
12-19-2012 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by kofh2u
12-19-2012 10:05 AM


Unattributed Copypasta
It’s a Fact
Here’s why:
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census).
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes.
(Source: Center for Disease Control).
80% of rapist motivated by displaced anger come from fatherless homes. (Source:
Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14, pp. 403-26).
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. (Source: National Principals Assoc. Report on the State of High Schools).
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. (Source: Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. Of Corrections, 1992).
These statistics translate to mean that children from fatherless homes are:
5 times more likely to commit suicide
32 times more likely to run away
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
14 times more likely to commit rape
9 times more likely to drop out of high school
20 times more likely to end up in prison
Children from fatherless homes are*:
Children from "fatherless families of single mother" homes are*:
15.3 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
4.6 times more likely to commit suicide
6.6 times more likely to become teenaged mothers
24.3 times more likely to run away
15.3 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
6.3 times more likely to be in a state-operated institutions
10.8 times more likely to commit rape
6.6 times more likely to drop out of school
15.3 times more likely to end up in prison while a teenage
73% of adolescent murderers come from mother only homes
6.3 times more likely to be in state operated institutions
Daughters who live in mother only homes are 92% more likely to divorce.
That looks just like this webpage:
Some Statistics on Fatherlessnes
But you didn't put it in quotes or attribute it, and you placed it next to your own words. That makes it look like you're trying to pass off as your own, something that somebody else wrote.
We come to this site to talk to each other, not to have coptypasta thrown at us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by kofh2u, posted 12-19-2012 10:05 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by kofh2u, posted 12-19-2012 10:44 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 555 of 5179 (684914)
12-19-2012 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2012 10:29 AM


Re: Unattributed Copypasta
LOL
Lame...
I would REALLY be suggesting that these facts were uncovered by me, and THEN, expect the audience here to accept my work as meaningful and acceptable .
What a Joke.
I DOUBT that even now you'll accept the TRUTH, once this ridiculous response is discarded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2012 10:29 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2012 10:51 AM kofh2u has replied

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