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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 676 of 5179 (685231)
12-21-2012 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-21-2012 10:12 AM


Re: Would this be enough?
I think you also have to factor in that the availability, convenience and efficiency of a firearm as a way of committing murder and suicide play a very large role.
It doesn't seem to me that Americans are uniquely depressed; just depressing ;-)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 10:12 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 10:53 AM Tangle has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 677 of 5179 (685233)
12-21-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-21-2012 10:12 AM


Re: Would this be enough?
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
So, looking at this it is not our aggressive nature as much as it is related to mental health and depression. If we can achieve beneficial results in the fields of mental health treatment, then we can begin to lower these gun related deaths without even removing guns from the street.
I looked into firearm suicide a little a few days ago and was surprised to discover that there is good evidence that removing firearms doesn't much affect suicides - they simply find another means. Leaping is very popular.
Nationally for a recent year there were 17,000 suicides and 14,000 homicides due to firearms (I'm rounding to the precision of my memory, of course), so somewhere around 55% of firearm deaths were suicides.
But I don't think the US is particularly afflicted with suicides, they probably occur at roughly the same rate in all countries around the globe and are included in their statistics. Dropping suicide deaths from consideration would still show the same thing: the higher the prevalence of firearms the higher the prevalence of firearm related deaths.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 10:12 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 10:57 AM Percy has replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 678 of 5179 (685236)
12-21-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 676 by Tangle
12-21-2012 10:21 AM


Re: Would this be enough?
Right, however removing the firearm will not remove the individual's desire to end their life. So, these are deaths that I do not feel that gun control will be able to effectively stop.
I have some more of the states that were listed in that study that Panda posted, still having some trouble finding some:
Michigan Department of Community Health:
Suicide: 570 - 53%
Homicide: 495 - 46%
Accidental: 12 - 1%
Alaska Division of Public Health:
Suicide: 287 - 82%
Homicide: 57 - 16%
Accidental: 6 - 2%
Nevada (From 2004, not 2009 could not find relevant '09 stats):
Suicide: 246 - 55%
Homicide: 192 - 43% (This includes all homicides, they did not separate information)
Accidental: 6 - 2%
And to understand that even without easy access to firearms those with mental health problems may still try and commit suicide, let's look at the total number of suicides in the UK in 2009:
According to World Health Organization
There were 4245 suicides that occured in the UK in 2009. The total death count for the UK was 491,269
This equals to about .8% of all UK Deaths were because of suicide
In Arizona there were 45,065 deaths in '09, suicides accounted for 1.3% of them. We are not too far away from one another in this regard even with some of the loosest gun laws in the United States. Mental Health Treatment is the biggest and most important step we need to take in the wake of this tragedy.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2012 10:21 AM Tangle has not replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 679 of 5179 (685237)
12-21-2012 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 677 by Percy
12-21-2012 10:43 AM


Re: Would this be enough?
Percy writes:
I looked into firearm suicide a little a few days ago and was surprised to discover that there is good evidence that removing firearms doesn't much affect suicides - they simply find another means. Leaping is very popular.
Yes, this is one of my points. Over half of the firearm-related deaths are quite difficult to avoid with gun control. Mental Health is what we must begin to look at right away!
Percy writes:
But I don't think the US is particularly afflicted with suicides, they probably occur at roughly the same rate in all countries around the globe and are included in their statistics. Dropping suicide deaths from consideration would still show the same thing: the higher the prevalence of firearms the higher the prevalence of firearm related deaths.
I found similar results. Every country seems to be equally affected by suicide, regardless of the gun control laws. So, should the US go for an all out ban, or could effective gun legislation (i.e. - registration, mandatory safe use, legal culpability, etc..) be an effective deterrent for the homicide aspect? Sure we have more homicides by gun, but would many of these homicides remain through another means if guns were fully banned?

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Percy, posted 12-21-2012 10:43 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Percy, posted 12-21-2012 11:13 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 681 by kofh2u, posted 12-21-2012 11:14 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 680 of 5179 (685242)
12-21-2012 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 679 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-21-2012 10:57 AM


Re: Would this be enough?
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
Sure we have more homicides by gun, but would many of these homicides remain through another means if guns were fully banned?
The statistics seem pretty clear on this. If you look at Intentional Homicide Rates By Country at Wikipedia you'll see that the US rate is 4.2 while that of countries like England, France, Germany, etc., are about 1/4 as great.
Here's a couple paragraphs from the article Consequences: Gun Ownership Linked to Higher Homicide Rates about a five year old study:
In states in the highest quarter of gun ownership, the study found, the overall homicide rate was 60 percent higher than in states in the lowest quarter. The rate of homicides involving guns was more than twice as high.
Among the possible explanations for the higher homicide rates, the study said, is that states with high gun ownership tend to make it easier to buy guns. There are also more guns that can be stolen. And the presence of a gun may allow arguments and fights to turn fatal.
The researchers said they could not prove that the guns caused the increase in homicides, only that there was a link.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 10:57 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 685 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 11:44 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 689 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2012 12:15 PM Percy has replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 681 of 5179 (685243)
12-21-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 679 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-21-2012 10:57 AM


When guns are illegal only illegals will have guns....
Sure we have more homicides by gun, but would many of these homicides remain through another means if guns were fully banned?
Clearly we are going to ban legal guns as can be seen by the liberal left views here that ignore the real problem, which is poor kids packed into intercities/schools and being raised fatherlessly by Single Mothers on Welfare.
So the real question is where can one buy illegal guns an how many are already in the hands of people who wil never turn them in like the sane, normal, conservative Right which will follow dictates and have listed their ownership on State/Federal Records proving they did buy a gun?
Another question is how can America last when the Truth is not as important as the Politically Correct assumptions that flow like rumors through the masses?????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 10:57 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2012 11:33 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 686 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-21-2012 11:51 AM kofh2u has not replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 682 of 5179 (685247)
12-21-2012 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 668 by Faith
12-21-2012 2:07 AM


Re: These Yanks are Crazy.....
The Jews realized it was too late to pray for mercy in 1942-5 when the consequences of the roaring 20's and rise of Feminism/gayness in Germany was already peaking due to the inability to Borrow from America or balance their Budgets.
All that was left to do was for a Strong man, like Obama, to rise up become the Great Father of the Fatherland which was to return to the patriarchy that always overcome the matriarchy that fails.
Survivalists need buy illegal guns now before the opportunities disappear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Faith, posted 12-21-2012 2:07 AM Faith has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 683 of 5179 (685250)
12-21-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by kofh2u
12-21-2012 11:14 AM


Re: When guns are illegal only illegals will have guns....
Clearly we are going to ban legal guns as can be seen by the liberal left views here that ignore the real problem, which is poor kids packed into intercities/schools and being raised fatherlessly by Single Mothers on Welfare.
Not that aren't problems in inner city schools, but it does not seem that any of these large school massacres fit the pattern you are describing. Sandy Hook is not an inner city school. Lanza's mom was divorced from Lanza's dad, but the divorce occurred after twenty seven years of marriage in 2009.
As usual, you have your own agenda which you indulge incessantly and often without regard for the discussion going on. Here's something to consider. We aren't ignoring inner city schools simply because we are talking about something else.
The unsurprising result of your several fixations is that your comments tend to miss the mark. I suppose I should be thankful that you aren't tying all of this into liberals rejecting the science in Genesis.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by kofh2u, posted 12-21-2012 11:14 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by kofh2u, posted 12-21-2012 2:10 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 684 of 5179 (685254)
12-21-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Faith
12-20-2012 1:58 PM


Re: These Yanks are Crazy.....
Faith writes:
Teachers are citizens, police are run by the state, I'm for arming citizens, not so much agents of the state although that too does seem necessary these days.
How do you qualify who works for the state and who doesn't? Most teachers in the UK are publicly funded. Are all publicly funded employees "run by the state" such that you don't want them armed?
Do you only want teachers in private schools armed now?
Faith writes:
Did you WATCH the video?
I did. My point is that in the UK even the police don't want to be armed. So the idea that there is some sort of mass citizens movement demanding that civilians carry guns is deeply deeply unrepresentative of the actual situation.
The reason I asked where you got that video is that I suspect it will be from a source that is actively seeking to misrepresent the situation as it actually is. I have never met anyone who expresses the attitudes in your video and all the stats suggest that any who do are flying in the face of overwhelming public opinion in the UK.
I know this may come as a shock to you Faith but we don't want guns. Our police don't want guns. We don't want our police to have guns. Our police don't want us to have guns. Etc. etc.
We think arming everyone to the teeth is a pretty bad idea........
Call us crazy if you will. Because most of us think the American attitude to guns is downright bizzarre.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 12-20-2012 1:58 PM Faith has not replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 685 of 5179 (685258)
12-21-2012 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by Percy
12-21-2012 11:13 AM


Re: Would this be enough?
Yes, there is definitely a possible link, however we must be careful to understand that correlation does not equal causation. If it for sure did, then we would expect the US to be the number 1 country for homicide because of the widespread availability of guns. As it stands, we are not even near the top of the list (yes, I am counting all countries, not only the richest nations) We are far and away the most gun-owning country in the world. Beating the next closest country by 30.6 guns per 100 people.
This is why I am advocating for stricter regulations, but not for the complete removal of all firearms. I am also very against only removing Assault weapons because the largest majority of gun crime is actually committed with handguns. so we would be attacking the lower percentage of problems. Make gun registration mandatory, it is ridiculous that the people are afraid to let the government know they own a gun.
Speaking of this, I was hoping for some intelligent moves to be made by the NRA today in their announcement. My hope is that they would have offered to look into weapon registration at least, and possibly offer private money to help fund mental health research. Instead, they called for the breach of medical confidentiality and forcing individuals with mental health problems to be reported to the government...
...
...
...
...Wait...we can break medical confidentiality, but you are still not required to tell the government that you own a gun. That is asinine!!
The connection is not for sure, but we definitely need to take steps toward increasing gun regulations, I am just not sold that we need to completely remove them.
List of Countries by intentional Homicides
Number of guns per capita

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by Percy, posted 12-21-2012 11:13 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 686 of 5179 (685261)
12-21-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by kofh2u
12-21-2012 11:14 AM


Re: When guns are illegal only illegals will have guns....
kofh2u writes:
So the real question is where can one buy illegal guns an how many are already in the hands of people who wil never turn them in like the sane, normal, conservative Right which will follow dictates and have listed their ownership on State/Federal Records proving they did buy a gun?
These people do not register their weapons with the state and federal government. Maybe in a couple of states they do, but in the majority of states registration is not required for firearms. My manager owns multiple guns and does not have them registered, behind the reasoning of he does not want the government to watch him. It is ridiculous and stupid that this is the case!
Fine, no registration, although I think that is the stupidest point being held onto by the Gun lobby. Well, the government taxes the hell out of cigarettes for the sake of public safety and there is nothing written in the Second Amendment that says they cannot do likewise for guns.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by kofh2u, posted 12-21-2012 11:14 AM kofh2u has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 687 of 5179 (685263)
12-21-2012 12:00 PM


NRA - Still shills for the gun industry
The NRA, after their period of silence, holds a press conference in which they do the expected. Namely defend the guns industry whose lifeblood over the last few decades has been the sale of semi-automatic assault weapons, and advocates putting more guns in schools.
An excerpt from a five minute long screed mostly in defense of assault weapons.
quote:
If we truly cherish our kids, more than our money, more than our celebrities, more than our sports stadiums, we must give them the greatest level of protection possible. And that security is only available with properly trained, armed good guys. Under Asa’s leadership, our team of security experts will make this program available to the world for protecting our children in school. And we’ll make the program available to every single school in America, free of charge. That’s a plan of action that can, and will make a real positive, indisputable difference in the safety of our children, and it will start right now.
I think the NRA has underestimated the mood of the country after Sandy Hook. I can understand why the NRA waited to deliver this speech, but I think it was still too soon. I also think the attempt to place blame on the president will resonate with some of the 'base', but was overall a tactical mistake.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2012 12:07 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 725 by hooah212002, posted 12-21-2012 8:02 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 688 of 5179 (685265)
12-21-2012 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by NoNukes
12-21-2012 12:00 PM


Re: NRA - Still shills for the gun industry
Namely defend the guns industry whose lifeblood over the last few decades has been the sale of semi-automatic assault weapons, and advocates putting more guns in schools.
Citation for this claim? This seems off. I would expect that gun industry profits, excluding manufacture for armed forces (which a gun ban wouldn't stop) are driven primarily by the production and sale of handguns, not semiauto rifles. Just wondering if you had some evidence for the reverse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2012 12:00 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2012 3:50 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 689 of 5179 (685266)
12-21-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 680 by Percy
12-21-2012 11:13 AM


Re: Would this be enough?
The statistics seem pretty clear on this. If you look at Intentional Homicide Rates By Country at Wikipedia you'll see that the US rate is 4.2 while that of countries like England, France, Germany, etc., are about 1/4 as great.
But if you exclude gun homicides, we still have multiple the rate of homicides of those other countries. Sure, I think it makes sense to everyone that the rate of gun homicides is higher in a country with more guns. But what would cause the presence of guns to make people more likely to stab each other? To strangle each other? To beat each other to death with bats?
I don't think the stats are as clear as you think, for that reason. Comparing country to country assumes that two countries have the same intrinsic rate of homicidal tendency, the assumption being that if you take guns out of the hands of citizens, they'll just stand there twitching their empty trigger fingers at each other. But it's clearly the case that Americans are, in aggregate, more murderous than the citizens of other nations, and like in Australia, reductions in the number of guns would simply shift the modality of homicide from gunfire to knives and cudgels. Ultimately, the primary cause of homicide in the US is not the availability of weapons, it's the War on Drugs and the massive level of economic inequality, particularly that faced by young African-American men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by Percy, posted 12-21-2012 11:13 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by kofh2u, posted 12-21-2012 12:28 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 694 by Rahvin, posted 12-21-2012 12:55 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 735 by Percy, posted 12-22-2012 8:19 AM crashfrog has replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 690 of 5179 (685267)
12-21-2012 12:24 PM


care for kids...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we truly cherish our kids, more than our money, more than our celebrities, more than our sports stadiums, we must give them the greatest level of protection possible. And that security is only available with properly trained, armed good guys. Under Asa’s leadership, our team of security experts will make this program available to the world for protecting our children in school. And we’ll make the program available to every single school in America, free of charge. That’s a plan of action that can, and will make a real positive, indisputable difference in the safety of our children, and it will start right now.
What I see is that the people who push to condemn guns do not care for the kids raised in such abuse by these broken families that they become criminals.
It is just the Politically Left Incorrect thinking that comes from a feminists philosophy that tries to avoid condemning the real causes, which are their bastard kids.
The evidence is that almost all these shooters are under age 25, raised in fatherless homes, generally rsponsible for 70% of all our Social Problems.
Bill Cosby was silenced for saying this same thing to the Black Church goers:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
BILL COSBY:
"So, tell your friends. Let's try to do something. Let's try to make Jesus smile.
Let's start parenting."
Ladies and gentlemen, I really have to ask you to seriously consider what you've heard, and now this is the end of the evening so to speak.
I heard a prize fight manager say to his fellow who was losing badly, "David, listen to me.
It's not what's he's doing to you.
It's what you're not doing."
Ladies and gentlemen, these (white) people set -- they opened the doors, they gave us the right, and today, ladies and gentlemen, in our cities and public schools we have 50% drop out.
In our own neighborhood, we have men in prison.
No longer is a person embarrassed because they're pregnant without a husband.
No longer is a boy considered an embarrassment if he tries to run away from being the father of the unmarried child.
Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic and lower middle economic people are not holding their end in this deal.
In the neighborhood that most of us grew up in, parenting is not going on.
In the old days, you couldn't hooky school because every drawn shade was an eye.
And before your mother got off the bus and to the house, she knew exactly where you had gone, who had gone into the house, and where you got on whatever you had one and where you got it from.
Parents don't know that today.
I'm talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.
Where were you when he was two?
Where were you when he was twelve?
Where were you when he was eighteen, and how come you don't know he had a pistol?
And where is his father, and why don't you know where he is? And why doesn't the father show up to talk to this boy?
The church is only open on Sunday.
And you can't keep asking Jesus to ask doing things for you. You can't keep asking that God will find a way.
God is tired of you.
God was there when they won all those cases -- fifty in a row. That's where God was because these people were doing something.
And God said, "I'm going to find a way."
I wasn't there when God said it -- I'm making this up.
But it sounds like what God would do.
We cannot blame white people.
White people -- White people don't live over there.
They close up the shop early.
The Korean ones still don't know us as well -- they stay open 24 hours.
I'm looking and I see a man named Kenneth Clark, he and his wife Mamie.
Kenneth's still alive.
I have to apologize to him for these people because Kenneth said it straight.
He said you have to strengthen yourselves, and we've got to have that black doll.
And everybody said it.
Julian Bond said it.
Dick Gregory said it.
All these lawyers said it.
And you wouldn't know that anybody had done a damned thing.
Fifty percent drop out rate, I'm telling you, and people in jail, and women having children by five, six different men.
Under what excuse?
I want somebody to love me.
And as soon as you have it, you forget to parent.
Grandmother, mother, and great grandmother in the same room, raising children, and the child knows nothing about love or respect of any one of the three of them.
All this child knows is "gimme, gimme, gimme."
These people want to buy the friendship of a child, and the child couldn't care less.
Those of us sitting out here who have gone on to some college or whatever we've done, we still fear our parents.
And these people are not parenting.
They're buying things for the kid -- $500 sneakers -- for what?
They won't buy or spend $250 on Hooked on Phonics.
Kenneth Clark, somewhere in his home in upstate New York -- just looking ahead.
Thank God he doesn't know what's going on.
Thank God.
But these people -- the ones up here in the balcony fought so hard.
Looking at the incarcerated, these are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca Cola.
People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake!
Then we all run out and are outraged: "The cops shouldn't have shot him."
What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?
I wanted a piece of pound cake just as bad as anybody else. And I looked at it and I had no money.
And something called parenting said if you get caught with it you're going to embarrass your mother.
" Not, "You're going to get your butt kicked."
No. "You're going to embarrass your mother."
"You're going to embarrass your family."
If you knock that girl up, you're going to have to run away because it's going to be too embarrassing for your family.
In the old days, a girl getting pregnant had to go down South, and then her mother would go down to get her.
But the mother had the baby.
I said the mother had the baby.
The girl didn't have a baby.
The mother had the baby in two weeks.
We are not parenting.
Ladies and gentlemen, listen to these people.
They are showing you what's wrong.
People putting their clothes on backwards.
Isn't that a sign of something going on wrong?
Are you not paying attention?
People with their hat on backwards, pants down around the crack.
Isn't that a sign of something or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up?
Isn't it a sign of something when she's got her dress all the way up to the crack -- and got all kinds of needles and things going through her body.
What part of Africa did this come from?
We are not Africans.
Those people are not Africans; they don't know a damned thing about Africa.
With names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed and all that crap and all of them are in jail.
(When we give these kinds names to our children, we give them the strength and inspiration in the meaning of those names. What's the point of giving them strong names if there is not parenting and values backing it up).
Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.
We've got to take the neighborhood back.
We've got to go in there.
Just forget telling your child to go to the Peace Corps. It's right around the corner. It's standing on the corner.
It can't speak English. It doesn't want to speak English.
I can't even talk the way these people talk: "Why you ain't where you is go ra?"
I don't know who these people are.
And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.
Then I heard the father talk.
This is all in the house.
You used to talk a certain way on the corner and you got into the house and switched to English.
Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads.
You can't land a plane with, "Why you ain't"
You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth.
There is no Bible that has that kind of language.
Where did these people get the idea that they're moving ahead on this.
Well, they know they're not; they're just hanging out in the same place, five or six generations sitting in the projects when you're just supposed to stay there long enough to get a job and move out.
Now, look, I'm telling you. It's not what they're doing to us.
It's what we're not doing.
50 percent drop out.
Look, we're raising our own ingrown immigrants.
These people are fighting hard to be ignorant.
There's no English being spoken, and they're walking and they're angry.
Oh God, they're angry and they have pistols and they shoot and they do stupid things.
And after they kill somebody, they don't have a plan.
Just murder somebody.
Boom.
Over what?
A pizza?
And then run to the poor cousin's house.
They sit there and the cousin says, "What are you doing here?"
"I just killed somebody, man.
"What?"
"I just killed somebody; I've got to stay here."
"No, you don't."
"Well, give me some money, I'll go."
"Where are you going?"
"North Carolina."
Everybody wanted to go to North Carolina.
But the police know where you're going because your cousin has a record.
Five or six different children -- same woman, eight, ten different husbands or whatever.
Pretty soon you're going to have to have DNA cards so you can tell who you're making love to.
You don't who this is. It might be your grandmother.
I'm telling you, they're young enough.
Hey, you have a baby when you're twelve.
Your baby turns thirteen and has a baby, how old are you?
Huh?
Grandmother.
By the time you're twelve, you could have sex with your grandmother, you keep those numbers coming.
I'm just predicting.
I'm saying Brown versus the Board of Education.
We've got to hit the streets, ladies and gentlemen.
I'm winding up, now -- no more applause.
I'm saying, look at the Black Muslims.
There are Black Muslims standing on the street corners and they say so forth and so on, and we're laughing at them because they have bean pies and all that, but you don't read, "Black Muslim gunned down while chastising drug dealer."
You don't read that.
They don't shoot down Black Muslims.
You understand me.
Muslims tell you to get out of the neighborhood.
When you want to clear your neighborhood out, first thing you do is go get the Black Muslims, bean pies and all.
And your neighborhood is then clear.
The police can't do it.
I'm telling you Christians, what's wrong with you?
Why can't you hit the streets?
Why can't you clean it out yourselves?
It's our time now, ladies and gentlemen.
It is our time.
And I've got good news for you.
It's not about money.
It's about you doing something ordinarily that we do -- get in somebody else's business.
It's time for you to not accept the language that these people are speaking, which will take them nowhere.
What the hell good is Brown v. Board of Education if nobody wants it?
What is it with young girls getting after some girl who wants to still remain a virgin.
Who are these sick black people and where did they come from and why haven't they been parented to shut up?
To go up to girls and try to get a club where "you are nobody...."
This is a sickness, ladies and gentlemen, and we are not paying attention to these children.
These are children.
They don't know anything.
They don't have anything.
They're homeless people.
All they know how to do is beg.
And you give it to them, trying to win their friendship.
And what are they good for?
And then they stand there in an orange suit and you drop to your knees: "He didn't do anything.
He didn't do anything."
Yes, he did do it.
And you need to have an orange suit on, too.
So, ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you for the award -- and giving me an opportunity to speak because, I mean, this is the future, and all of these people who lined up and done -- they've got to be wondering what the hell happened.
Brown V. Board of Education -- these people who marched and were hit in the face with rocks and punched in the face to get an education and we got these knuckleheads walking around who don't want to learn English.
I know that you all know it.
I just want to get you as angry that you ought to be.
When you walk around the neighborhood and you see this stuff, that stuff's not funny.
These people are not funny anymore.
And that's not my brother.
And that's not my sister.
They're faking and they're dragging me way down because the state, the city, and all these people have to pick up the tab on them because they don't want to accept that they have to study to get an education.
We have to begin to build in the neighborhood, have restaurants, have cleaners, have pharmacies, have real estate, have medical buildings instead of trying to rob them all.
And so, ladies and gentlemen, please, Dorothy Height, where ever she's sitting, she didn't do all that stuff so that she could hear somebody say "I can't stand algebra, I can't stand" and "what you is."
It's horrible.
Basketball players -- multimillionaires can't write a paragraph.
Football players, multimillionaires, can't read.
Yes.
Multimillionaires.
Well, Brown v. Board of Education, where are we today?
It's there.
They paved the way.
What did we do with it?
The White Man, he's laughing -- got to be laughing.
50 percent drop out -- rest of them in prison.
You got to tell me that if there was parenting -- help me -- if there was parenting, he wouldn't have picked up the Coca Cola bottle and walked out with it to get shot in the back of the head.
He wouldn't have.
Not if he loved his parents.
And not if they were parenting!
Not if the father would come home.
Not if the boy hadn't dropped the sperm cell inside of the girl and the girl had said, "No, you have to come back here and be the father of this child."
Not .."I don't have to."
Therefore, you have the pile up of these sweet beautiful things born by nature -- raised by no one.
Give them presents.
You're raising pimps.
That's what a pimp is.
A pimp will act nasty to you so you have to go out and get them something.
And then you bring it back and maybe he or she hugs you. And that's why pimp is so famous.
They've got a drink called the "Pimp-something."
You all wonder what that's about, don't you?
Well, you're probably going to let Jesus figure it out for you. Well, I've got something to tell you about Jesus.
When you go to the church, look at the stained glass things of Jesus.
Look at them.
Is Jesus smiling?
Not in one picture.
So, tell your friends.
Let's try to do something.
Let's try to make Jesus smile.
Let's start parenting.
Thank you, thank you.

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