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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 706 of 5179 (685295)
12-21-2012 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by PsychMJC
12-21-2012 1:16 PM


Re: These Yanks are Crazy.....
Gun owners still get robbed.
But as we've seen, they're less likely to be robbed while they're home. Which is safer for all concerned.
It seems like the criminals just get bigger guns.
No, that's inaccurate. They actually make an effort to rob unoccupied homes. In the UK, where the populace has been denied the tools of self-defense, they don't bother to make the effort.
YOU are the one who said if threatened with being shot they would stop. But they don't stop.
Then how do arrests occur?
Those same exact children STILL break the law sometimes.
And it should be they, and not their victims, who bear the physical burden of their crimes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by PsychMJC, posted 12-21-2012 1:16 PM PsychMJC has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 707 of 5179 (685297)
12-21-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2012 12:50 PM


Re: Harvard Study -- use gun owners not guns
Hi Catholic Scientist
Doesn't look like any correlation to speak of to me. ...
Of course one of the reasons for this failure is the statistics used:
USA 88 4.2
Number of homicides is per 100?
Number of gun owners not used (number of people with access to guns?)
Number of guns (/100 people iirc) = 88.8 does not mean that 88.8% of the population own guns or have access to one (and would be comparable to those potentially involve in gun homicide).
Say the average gun owner has 3 guns in the US, that makes the number of gun owners/100 to be something like 29.6%. Similar adjustments for all other countries would change all the data, and would be more indicative in whether or not there is a correlation.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 708 of 5179 (685298)
12-21-2012 3:09 PM


About 6 months after every school in the USA has armed guards at the gates and in the corridors, there will be a massacre on a school bus.
The NRA's immediate response will be to demand armed guards riding shotgun on school buses.
And so on.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 709 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2012 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 709 of 5179 (685299)
12-21-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 708 by Tangle
12-21-2012 3:09 PM


Hi Tangle
The NRA's immediate response will be to demand armed guards riding shotgun on school buses.
And when one of those armed guards goes on a rampage ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2012 3:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2012 3:15 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 711 by AZPaul3, posted 12-21-2012 3:30 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 713 by AZPaul3, posted 12-21-2012 3:40 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 710 of 5179 (685300)
12-21-2012 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by RAZD
12-21-2012 3:12 PM


RAZD writes:
And when one of those armed guards goes on a rampage ...
And when one of those armed guards shoots a child when he was reaching for a hidden banana....

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2012 3:12 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by AZPaul3, posted 12-21-2012 3:35 PM Tangle has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8535
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 711 of 5179 (685302)
12-21-2012 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by RAZD
12-21-2012 3:12 PM


And when one of those armed guards goes on a rampage ...
... then it wouldn't matter if he used a gun or an axe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2012 3:12 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2012 4:15 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8535
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 712 of 5179 (685303)
12-21-2012 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 710 by Tangle
12-21-2012 3:15 PM


And when one of those armed guards shoots a child when he was reaching for a hidden banana....
... then we will know either the training or the psych eval were deficient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 710 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2012 3:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2012 3:43 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8535
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 713 of 5179 (685304)
12-21-2012 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by RAZD
12-21-2012 3:12 PM


And when one of those armed guards goes on a rampage ...
And when one of those armed guards shoots a child when he was reaching for a hidden banana....
... then we will know it was a god awful idea to begin with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2012 3:12 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 714 of 5179 (685305)
12-21-2012 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by AZPaul3
12-21-2012 3:35 PM


..ah, good. i thought for a minute you didn't have it quite sorted out. But obviously you do, children are safe again, phew.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by AZPaul3, posted 12-21-2012 3:35 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 715 of 5179 (685308)
12-21-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 688 by crashfrog
12-21-2012 12:07 PM


Re: NRA - Still shills for the gun industry
This seems off. I would expect that gun industry profits, excluding manufacture for armed forces (which a gun ban wouldn't stop) are driven primarily by the production and sale of handguns, not semiauto rifles. Just wondering if you had some evidence for the reverse.
Assault Weapons Sales Boom Fuels Gun Industry Profits, And Tragedy | HuffPost Latest News
quote:
In February 2006, Smith & Wesson, the storied gunmaker founded in 1851, unveiled its first-ever semi-automatic assault-style rifle. The company dubbed it the M&P15, for "military and police," but the gun was very much aimed at the retail market.
Consumer response was "overwhelming," Mike Golden, the former CEO, told investors in a conference call the following year. Sales of the M&P15 and other military-style weapons were playing a crucial role in pulling the company out of a deep sales slump, he said.
quote:
The boom in assault weapons has more than offset dropping sales of traditional firearms caused by a declining national interest in hunting, said Rommel Dionisio, a securities analyst at Wedbush Morgan Securities who follows the gun industry.
"That category of firearms has been a primary growth engine and profit driver for firearms companies for the last seven or eight years," Dionisio said.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 688 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2012 12:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2012 9:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 716 of 5179 (685309)
12-21-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 711 by AZPaul3
12-21-2012 3:30 PM


... then it wouldn't matter if he used a gun or an axe.
Yes it would. There is actually a reason why people buy guns rather than axes. Guns are more effective. Otherwise they could save a whole lot of money, and the National Ax Association would be bigger than the NRA. There'd be big savings for the Army, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by AZPaul3, posted 12-21-2012 3:30 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by vimesey, posted 12-21-2012 5:07 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 717 of 5179 (685311)
12-21-2012 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by crashfrog
12-21-2012 2:21 PM


Re: Would this be enough?
Murders happen overwhelmingly because one individual wants another individual dead, and once that guy is dead, they're done murdering. And whether a gun is around, or a knife or a necktie or a pair of bare hands, is really very immaterial to that.
But I don't see any way to so restrict him, without also restricting his victim, and I very much want his victim armed with a handgun and ten rounds [...] I want the right people to die instead of the wrong ones, Rahvin. Maybe that's the difference we can't bridge, here.
Killings in self-defense happen overwhelmingly because one individual wants to defend himself against an assailant, and once that guy is dead, they're done self-defending. And whether a gun is around, or a knife or a necktie or a pair of bare hands, is really very immaterial to that.
Remember, guns don't protect people, people protect people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2012 2:21 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 731 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2012 9:35 PM Dr Adequate has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 718 of 5179 (685314)
12-21-2012 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Faith
12-20-2012 1:58 PM


Re: These Yanks are Crazy.....
No. See above. Teachers are citizens, police are run by the state, I'm for arming citizens, not so much agents of the state although that too does seem necessary these days.
What did you have in mind when you wrote this? Were you think that state troopers or the FBI would be patrolling the schools? Because almost certainly, both the teacher and the policeman in the school are going to be employees of the same governmental unit.
Neither would be run by the state. Perhaps you meant to say that the teachers were civilians?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 12-20-2012 1:58 PM Faith has not replied

vimesey
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 719 of 5179 (685319)
12-21-2012 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 716 by Dr Adequate
12-21-2012 4:15 PM


Yep.
"Guns don't kill people - people kill people.
But guns make it a whoooole lot easier."

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2012 4:15 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 720 of 5179 (685320)
12-21-2012 5:21 PM


OK, liberals, "overwhelming, killers use illegal guns..."
"The overwhelming majority of gun related crimes are committed with guns that have been stolen, and traded for drugs.
Those guns are passed from criminal to criminal, sold and resold, and may very well be used in hundreds of crimes before they are recovered from someone accused of a crime."
What Percentage Of Crimes Committed With Illegal And Legal Guns - Gun Laws
We do have a handle on the source of guns recovered from persons arrested and accused of a crime. Of guns recovered from persons arrested and charged with a crime:
84 percent of those guns were stolen in a burglary; including 4 percent stolen from a relative or a friend.

Replies to this message:
 Message 721 by vimesey, posted 12-21-2012 5:31 PM kofh2u has not replied
 Message 722 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2012 5:36 PM kofh2u has not replied

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