Is God good?

Defending how the spoils of war are treated in order to show how God is good is like defending how eggshells are disposed of in order to show how nice the omelette tastes."Wars happen" is not a defence for a benevolent, powerful God.If God restrains himself from preventing war... then He's not good.
If God isn't powerful enough to prevent war... then He's not God.

How about the details and circumstances of the command be examined FAIRLY to at least avoid jumping to the conclusion that God is a monster ?That is how we pretty much started down this road. Yes God is powerful. But in His creation He has not only wood, stones, rocks and things which have no will of there own. He has creatures who are problematic because they have their own wills. They have their own strong minds, strong opinions, and strong wills. And they may choose to take the other way besides God's way.Adam did.It was easy for God to say "Let there be ..." and cause things to come into existence. But in harmonizing the will of some of His creatures with His own, this was not as easy.At least I can see that the final destination to which history is moving is His will done on earth as it is in heaven and His kingdom come - ONE will.And Revelation 21 and 22 at least show the destination to which God is headed - no death, no tears, no sorrow, all the formers things have passed away. And the sons of God reigning forever and ever fully conformed to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.So at least I see the final outcome. I see how we can procrastinate in cooperation. But I see that mankind will eventually come around to the will of God. The existence of wars do not for me for a moment prove the non-existence of God.And I think the single worst thing that has ever happened on earth is man's condemning of the Son of God to be executed. And THAT tragedy God turned, by the power of His providence, to be the greatest redemptive blessing to the human race.As a Christian I hold to Paul's word that to those who love God, He has the power to cause ALL THINGS to work together for good. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Rom. 8:28) The Bible closes in Revelation 21 and 22 with a glimpse into eternity. To those who love God and are called to His eternal purpose, all things, everything, each thing, the whole compass of things God has caused to turn out to eternal good.Everything Satan has done to oppose the will of God God has turned the tables and completely accomplished His plan gloriously and victoriously.A glimpse of this Tragedy to Triumph is seen in the death and resurrection of Christ.The One who inhabits eternity is able to cause all things, including the misfortunes of wars, to work together for good to His sons of God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Sure.So we have two people coming into contact.
One wants to take God's way (being nice).
The other wants to take the other way and causes head trauma to the first who can now no longer be nice because that part of his brain is missing.One person didn't want to hurt anyone.
One person wanted to hurt others.Someone is going to get what they want.
Someone is not going to get what they want.
Someone's strong minds, opinions and wills are going to be removed.Why does God side with the evil one and remove the will of the good one?
Why doesn't God side with the good one and remove the will of the evil one? They do not prove the non-existence of God.
They prove the non-existence of a benevolent, powerful, wise God.God could have created a world where evil's free will is restricted and passive free will is allowed to flourish.
Instead, we live in a world where evil's free will is allowed to flourish and passive free will is restricted.

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If God restrains himself from preventing war... then He's not good.
If God isn't powerful enough to prevent war... then He's not God.

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...Simple and true.God not restricting the free will of evil people is not an excuse for a benevolent, powerful, wise God when evil people are capable of restricting the free will of others.If a God restrains Himself from restricting the free will of people who restrict the free will of others... then God is not good.

Seriously, jaywill, if you are trying to defend the practice described in Deuteronomy 21:10-14, it seems to me that you are going down the wrong path here. The taking of women as spoils of war and marrying them "in distress" is what you are defending here and is what is objectionable.The warning not to marry in haste is certainly useful. But shaving off the woman's hair so that you are not beguiled isn't what Percy Sledge meant by 'Take your time to know her'.I note that the same comment suggests that these women were to be 'secondary wives'.

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The man is supposed to have a wife already, and to take this wife for a secondary wife, as the Jews called them.

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Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

The scriptures are just being descriptive of what as the case about man, if we assume that the behavior of the Hebrew patriarchs indicates what God told them was proper for patriarchs, since "he who made the tiger and the lamb also made them, especially as compared to the Gentiles.If we expect that God wanted the patriarchs, then, or even in Islam today, to treat women with the freedom we see so out of hand in the sexually promiscuous Gentile culture of the West today, then I think not.I think God DID tell the Hebrew patriarchs that "taking of women as spoils of war and marrying them" was better treatment then women expected or received in wars back then or even today.In general, patriarchs, then or now are rather authoritative in regard to dealing with women, and do see them as property requiring both supervision and protection.We need check what the unregulated and unspecified actions were common among the victors on the Gentile side.
What did god put in their heads when they we created?

Adam was created innocent, neutral, and a pristine specimen of a best possible human man.He was presented with God's way and the other way.
He chose the other way. And the rest of the story is God's working to bring man back to His perfect will from the disaster Adam has unleashed. I think reducing this to a matter of being "nice" is way over simplification. Allow me to notice that you seem to be discribing the story of Cain and Abel somewhat.The difference being that Cain kills Abel through his intense envy and resentment. Somewhat like the story of Cain and Abel whom Cain murdered. This is the record of the first murder in history. Let's put this at "Why didn't God save Abel from being murdered? Why didn't God intervene and save Abel's life?"He certainly did intervene in other instances. Why not in this instance ?Its a good question. In the oldest book of the Bible - Job this ancient debate takes place with Job and his three friends. These were probably world renown wise men of the time. I am sure they had reputations for being exceedingly wise men. Job, Eliphaz, Zophar, and Bildad were great debaters (with Elihu as the probable recorder). "Why do bad things happen to good people?" was essentially the debate for some nearly 42 chapters.I am glad that God reserved on entire book of 42 chapters dedicated to "Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People?"I will not attempt in one Internet post to concisely sum up what this ancient debate between world renown wise men could not easily decide.Cut me a little slack. I'm not that smart.But I will say this. The central most BAD THING that happened to a GOOD MAN in which the good overcame, overpowered, and reigned victoriously over the evil is the death and resurrection of the Son of God - Jesus Christ.Wouldn't you have thought that a person like Jesus we should try our best to allow to hang around - to live? You know they tried to force Him to be a king.So when they came to execute Jesus, Peter was doing (by human standards) a good thing to wield his sword and defend his Master and Teacher to the death. But Jesus voluntarily stepped forward to be seized by the religious mob, unfairly judged a couple of times, and executed.The three days in which He was in the grave surely were days of the disciples contemplating "Why do bad things to good people?"
But on the third day He came out of death. I want to follow such a One. "In the world you have affliction, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) In one post I am not going to say more. Its too deep. There is absolutely, hear me now ... there is absolutely NO DOUBT in my heart that Satan will go down CRUSHED. We need to tell him that. Don't you know that John has already seen the believers built up in the New Jerusalem and the Devil in the lake of fire.Christ has overcome him. He is a defeated foe. We who receive Christ are allowing His Spirit to nullify Satan's work in our own beings. From the inside out, from the inside out Christ is defeating the foe.The Gospel is a proclamation of victory. Satan's only power left is that of his lying. The truth shall make us free. "If you abide in My word, you are truly My discples. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free ... Everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. And the slave does not abide in the house forever; the son does abide forever. If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:31-36) .Christ's kingdom is alive and well and growing. We have the masterkey. We know what God needs in us. We know how to cooperate with God for the accomplishing of His eternal purpose.
We know that the key is to inwardly allow Christ the life giving Spirit to saturate and permeate our beings and build us up together into His church.Can't you see that His coming is near? Reading the Bible is like reading the newspaper. And reading the newspaper is like reading the Bible. Like I said, we see where history is going. We see the final outcome. God's track record for predicting what will be in the future is very good.He spoke of Christ's coming a thousand plus years before Christ came. And He did come. And the speaking of His coming again, I am sure, cannot fail.When the weapons are turned to plows and the swords into pruning hooks and the nations study war no more, I want to be there to see. I don't share your pessimism.Not only will wars stop but the natural world itself will be restored into a harmonious state for first 1,000 years and then in the age of eternity.You see the creation is eagerly waiting for us, the children of God who have received the divine nature, to be sanctified, transformed, conformed and glorified. We are in the process day by day. "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed upon us.

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For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

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For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,

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In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

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And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:18-23) And HERE is where I put some of the verses to music -
http://www.scripturesongs.us/Rom8_18-19.mp3I would like to write out the whole chapter. But the present and the future of the believer in Christ is glorious - triumphant and victorious.You don't want to miss all this enjoyment, do you?Isaiah 2:4 - He will judge between the nations, and will render verdicts for the benefit of many. "They will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations will not raise swords against nations, and they will not learn warfare anymore. You see the peace that will envelope the globe first begins to work in the believer's heart. His salvation is from the inside out. It is from the innermost being outward into the soul, into the body, and into the entire environment.MAN was the cause of the collapse of creation. And the salvation of MAN is the cause of the heading up of all things under the Savior. The Savior of the world works from within ME and outward.Our tendency is to want Him to start over there with those other guys. He starts in you. And we Christians are foretasting what we will have as a full taste in the next age.We have an appetizer, a foretaste. We who have received Christ have "tasted of the powers of the age to come." (Hebrews 6:6) The very Holy Spirit is the pledge and down payment of the full installment that cannot fail to come. So we should open our hearts and invite Jesus to come into our hearts as the Holy Spirit. "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) And this living indwelling Spirit of Christ is the sure pledge and forestaste as a garuantee of the full taste to come -
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." (2 Cor. 5:5)

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" ... the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ..." (Eph. 1:14)

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"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God, He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 1:21,22) The indwelling of Jesus in the heart of the one who receives Him, is the pledge. We know that we know His kingdom will be manifested. "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

My purpose with Deuternomy 21:10-14 has been to show the measure of justness and goodness that exists there. I think the charges of Divine rape, divine genocide are made mostly by people who didn't read the Bible carefully for themselves. They are parroting what they heard some skeptic claim.God made ordinances concerning cultural situations which faced the ancient nations, including Israel.God said He hated divorce. But if it occurs, He delivered to Israel guidelines concerning divorce.God ordained one man for one woman in marriage. Because of the greediness and hardness of fallen man's heart He delivered through Moses instructions should polygamy occur.Slavery - involuntary indentured servitude was also component of the fallen world. Laws existed through Moses concerning slavery also.These laws do not discribe a utopian earth by any means. But most of them I can clearly see were good laws which revealed a movement towards a relatively more just society.My bible does not conclude with Leviticus. Much had to take place before the Christ came as God incarnate. One of the things which had to become clear to man is God's hatred for sins.Several severe instances should drive home God's hatred for sin. God cannot be all good and yet neutral towards sin. His goodness is also manifested in His judgments.How do I know God is good ? This I take on FAITH. For one Jesus Christ called His Father "Righteous Father" . And the integrity of Jesus is above questioning to me among all teachers on earth - period.You may call that an argument from authority if you wish. And an argument from authority is said to be logically non-rigorous. My argument from the authority of Jesus may be logically non=-rigourous from a philosophical standpoint. But that does not mean it is wrong. It is just logically non-rigourous in philosophy.Aside from never criticizing the God of the Old Testament, I have the complete record of His doings there. Most of which I can grasp. Most of which I can understand and see the goodness of His being.Some cases are more difficult. Some cases are harder. I have no shrunk from carefully examining any of these.As should have been demonstrated often the critics are not taking all things into account.Above there was some talk about the badness of the Canaanites. However upon reading Genesis carefully I see that while Abraham was there in Canaan some of the people were quite good. They even scolded Abraham about not being straightforward.I think Genesis makes a particular point that the people of Canaan had not gotten that bad as of yet. Abraham bowed to them. They were not ready for the judgment to come in another 400 some years.When God did bring in "the army of Jehovah" to conquer Canaan His plan was not to exterminate everyone. It was to drive them out and disperse them and to destroy their idols FIRST.Right here - " And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation, which I am about to SEND AWAY before you. Because they did all these things, so I abhorred them." (Lev. 20:23) Archeaology reveals Jericho as a military fortress.
The same is true of Ai.The slaughter passages, I believe, refer to the ones left as the hardest of the hard - combatants.The case of Rehab the woman and her family in the destruction of Jericho alerts us that annhilation to the inhabitants was not an innescapable destiny. Otherwise Rehab the harlot would have been slain along with everyone else in the city.This leads me to the matter of Israel circling the city of Jericho once for each of seven days. And then on the last day they circled the city seven times. I believe that each day the terrorfying army circled the city was God giving the repentant inhabitants a chance to escape the city. If true then we have seven days in which those on the walls of Jericho could witness the army that was going to attack. And they had opportunity to flee that place.In judgment by God then, there was also mercy. The Canaanites knew that a miraculous nation was wondering in the wilderness for 40 years. They knew that a mighty God had divided the Red Sea unto them.Now that God is good is taken on faith by me. You have presented reasons why I should not have such a faith. But I am not convinced by those reasons to envision an Almighty Supreme Governor of all creation who somehow needs lessons on ethics from His own creatures.Anyway the person MOST qualified to pronounce God as not good is Jesus Christ, to me. And He did not do so but refered to His "Righteous Father".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I agree and add that the information we read in the OT is not telling us whether god is good or bad, but simply how the creature he created, man, behaves... which is that he behaves as god made him to so behave.God made the tiger and the lamb, but it is the tiger who eats the lamb.The point that is important is that God also made the Gentiles.These gentiles THINK differently than the Hebrew patriarchs or the present Chinese or Muslim patriarchs.
That is ALL we can infer from what we are reading until we compare these two types of men who god made and who think differently.
We can also face the fact that patriarchs DID hear god telling them to kill the sexually promiscuous Gentiles and the muslims ARE sharpening their knives right now, along with China and N. Korea for that matter.While Jay confuses this straight forward observation with a lot of nonsense about God, (which is unsupportable), others here ridicule this portrayal according to Jay as manufactured and illogical.
Which it is, but they attribute his argument to sources in the bible, which they are not.PS
I believe god DOES tell patriarchs to kill weak, rich, self destructive welfare state Gentiles before the pornography and sexual immorality infects them and their women, destroying them too.
God does this because the Family is the building Block for civilization which is our only hope to cope with possible extinction of our species.I believe His natural law that we adapt to the environment requires that our species build stable families to raise the next generations.Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

I thank you for your words of encouragement.
Bu I think you are reading your conservatism into the Bible.How does your anti-welfare critique deal with such a passage as this? "And if your brother becomes poor and he is unable to support himself as he lives beside you, then you shall support him, like a stranger and a sojourner, so that he may live beside you.

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Do not take any interest or gain from him, but fear your God, so that your brother may live beside you.

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You shall not give him your money at interest nor give him your food for gain.

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I am Jehovah your God, ... " (See Leviticus 25:35-37) Do you think Moses had a bad spell of rotten modern liberalism there ?Seriously, don't go down the road of confidence that in everything God thinks like a right winger.What do you think of the year of Jubilee? Every cycle of 50 years all depts were forgiven and deptors were released for a brand new start. Servants were all to be freed in the year of Jubilee.

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An institution of biblical law providing every 50 years for the release of Hebrew slaves and the restoration of family property. The jubilee was observed after every seven cycles of Sabbatical Years, each cycle being seven years....

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The laws of the jubilee year were such as to enable each Jew to begin life again on an equal basis. Thus, all land sold since the previous jubilee had to revert to the original owner, this ultimately meaning the original families to whom the land had been assigned after Joshua's conquest of the land. All Jewish slaves, including those who had voluntarily accepted a continuation of their slavery after their term had expired, had to be released and given a grant to enable them to begin life anew. If applied perfectly, these provisions would insure that no individual amassed excessive wealth, nor would any Jew be reduced to perpetual poverty and servitude.

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Read more: Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's QuestionsRead more: Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's QuestionsDo you find these laws too liberal for your tastes ?
Is there too much "welfare" consciousness in these laws for you?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It specifically says in the wiki article about it

Could you give me some examples of what I wrote which you say is "nonsense about God, (which is unsupportable)"?

The gentile who chooses the path of an evil sexually promiscuous life style over the alternative opportunity to be sexually prudent is sur to become poor and unable to support himself/herself in great enough numbers to eventually see that he/she is not a brother to the patriarch.What he/she will see is destruction coming in every fashion and no helping hand will be able to save his nation of people.
It is NOT charity to enable people to hurt themselves, abort the unborn, pave the way to poverty, and increase the criminal element within their own city walls.Is it??????

Racism is different than the scientific concept of the races.Racism is a colloquial term which the Left has tried to eliminate as a Politically Incorrect term, but which is different from the scientific terminology that now genetically defines the seven present races of Modern Homo sapiens as those which were once sourced in the three Racial Stocks that evolved @ 150,000 years."Edwards saw the argument against such identities as being based mostly in a political stance that denies the existence biological difference in order to argue for social equality. [4]Richard Dawkins (2005) agreed with Edwards' view, summarizing the argument against Lewontin as being, "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are, highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."[27]"In 1972 Richard Lewontin performed a FST statistical analysis using 17 markers including blood group proteins. His results were the majority of genetic differences between humans
6.3% was found to differentiate races which in the study were Caucasian, African, Mongoloid, South Asian Aborigines, Amerinds, Oceanians, and Australian Aborigines." Those Three Racial Stocks, which differentiated into the seven races we can identify genetically today, have also been shown, recently, to have one unique and common father who lived 100,000 years before the 40,000 year long "Flood" out-of-Africa when mankind spread over all the earth under the heavens, even to the heights of the mountains.The article in US News, "Darwin, new insights into how evolution happens" reported this genetic connection between all men living today and this inferred "Noah" who father what has become "us."

Leviticus 25:25 is rather simple. You have one Hebrew looking out for the welfare of another. Just taken at face value, it is rather simple.Elsewhere if the cry of the oppressed employee goes up to God for unrighteous treatment, God said that this would become a sin -
"You shall not oppress a poor and needy hired servant among your brothers or among the sojourners with you, who are in your land within your gates.

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On the day he earns it [wages], you shall give him his wages, and the sun shall not go down upon it (for he is poor and his life depends on it); lest he cry against you to Jehovah and become sin in you."
(Deut. 24:14-15) This too is a righteous seeing to the welfare of hired servant. They were not to oppress him because he was poor. If the poor's cry goes up to God because of unfair oppression God would count the oppressor as sinning.Concerning the laws of God Moses said that the nations would see their righteous, wise, and prudent nation because of them - "Keep them and do them therefore; for this will be your wisdom and prudence in the sight of thepeoples who hear all these statutes and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and prident people." (Deut. 4:6) The surrounding peoples will see how much greater and more righteous are the laws of God to Israel - "And what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law which I am setting before you today? (v.8) These explemplary laws included not only sexual purity but also seeking the welfare of the poor until he can improve his lot and not oppressing the poor. No doubt destruction could come in a number of different ways. One extreme or the opposite exrtreme might bring destruction.So for the theocratic Israel of the Old Testament, we see laws to regulate promiscuity and laws to regulate unfettered greed and selfishness.I think I can take your response to mean you don't think a ordinance like Leviticus 25:25 is too liberal for you. Actually we might say that the better off Hebrew looking also to the welfare of the poorer brother beside him, was also conservative.Why? Because it was surely trying to CONSERVE the just and merciful nature of nation God had founded. On one hand many laws undoubtedly showed liberality should be practiced. On the other hand those same laws were conservative in their design to conserve and preserve the just nature of the society God had ordained.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Really???If it is so simple that it means responible married people (who have 1.5 million legitimate babies every year) are to hand over money to other socially irresponsible people (who have "needs," SIMPLY because they give birth to 1.5 million illegitimate babies every year while aborting another 1.2 million unbron babies), then Levicus would seem to support contributing to a "church" of people far removed from Judaism and its doctrines.