Is God good?

You mean you would like to revoke His sunshine, His rain, His air, His gravity, His process of human love, marriage, birth, growth, etc.You would like to revoke His entire creation from under your feet and from over your head.The sound mind He blessed you with, you wish He hadn't bothered too?The use of your limbs, organs, legs, hands for what purposes you prefer, you wish He had not granted those blessings as well ?In spite of some typical hassles that all people in the world face, you have been granted many days of happiness with friends and to persue the things you like. No thanks to God for that either huh? You just wish God would leave you alone.You sound like a real spoiled brat.And why do you come to Bible Study ? That's perculiar. Most people who hate baseball know better than to hang around Yankee Stadium. They might have to watch something about baseball.Get out of here already. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Dr. Adaquate, a number of posts back, supplied a link on research into writings which were listed under the bans of Nazis.His evidence included something called "primitive Darwin" and this recommendation also -

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All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk.

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Then I came across these examples Hitler's more hostil words against Christianity. They well could have qualified to be banned as well. For they ridicule, belittle and besmirch the Christian faith.Quotations attributed to Adolf Hitler are from Hitler's Table Talk [London: Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953 ]:

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"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together ... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity ... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (pp.6-7)

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"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. " (p.75)

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"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mocery ... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunized against the disease. " (pp. 118-119)

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"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p. 339)

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"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors - but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity .... My regret will have been that I couldn't ... behold [its demise]. (p.278)

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When I sort through the mass hysteria and confusion which was the Third Reich I have to include these examples of what Hitler's real attitude was about Christianity. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : "I shall [NEVER] come personally to terms with the Christian lie"

If you cannot specifically point out exactly what I wrote that you cannot understand, then spare me the charge of sophistry. That sounds lie a lot of pretentious bluster to me on your part.Pinpoint where you lose comprehension and I'll see if I can make it clearer. So far you have not demonstrated it as an even traditionally agreed upon conclusion. That was your job.You're asserting in essence "What else could it be?"Maybe so. Do some work and prove it.
Maybe you're wrong.No law as I can see condoned rape.
I already provided you proof that "hard cases" and cases "complicated" were refered to discerning judges.You don't want to accept any burden to prove that the she had no other choice. I already presented evidence that ANE captives often became serfs to the new land owners in cases of conquest.A wife of a captor would not be a serf. If you know a forced wife is the only option produce some rabbinical evidence that that was what the Jews understood there.I'm out on a limb here. But you do some of the burden of research since you're SO SURE that anything other than forced marriage is a frivolous error in interpretation. That is how you're posturing. You don't want to do any work do you ?Worse than sophistry. I used the NSRV, (NRSV?) Sherlock, because I was NOT at home. I was at a relative's house on his PC, and the New Revised Standard Bible was the only Bible near by to USE.Here it is again in my favorite translation the Recovery Version - "And you see a beautiful woman among the captives and desire her and would take her to yourself as a wife." (v.11 RcV) "And take her clothes of captivity away from her." (v. 13 RcV). I am at home now with my own customery bibles nearby.
By the way, consulting other translations can be helpful. It could be missing steps. As there could be missing steps inbetween seeing her among the captives and taking her into your house.Suppose you think she's beautiful and desireable to marry and one or two other soldiers thought the same thing?You see ALL of the details are not always covered. THAT is why I submitted that "hard cases" and cases too "complicated" required additional discrimination of judges or priests.I do not ASSUME they were only barbaric Neanderthals just because they were worshippers of Yahweh.I cannot find any condoned rape. The articles I am reading say the law in Deut 21:10-14 was there to protect the woman.And that is all the time I have this morning. You bear some of the burden to prove your view.If you really "care" as you said, then you'll present some results of your own research. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I'm old fashion and like flipping pages. I do not always like to cut and paste when it comes to the Bible. I do not like too much instantaneous technology when it comes to the word of God.When I handle the Bible even in discussions like this, I like to enjoy it, savor it, linger in its sweetness.Thank you for thinking to apologize. I accept. I also apologize for any rudeness. And I hope we can disagree without being too disagreeable.Thankyou for thinking to apologize. Now, what were we at each other's throat about?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There is a lot of reading to do which I will be digesting beyond this discussion. [Emphasis is mine]Here is a one comment on a Jewish Talmud note on Deut. 21:10-14 as I try to find out about the female POW. Interestingly, this commnetator said that the reason she was to be shaved of her hair, was to allow the captor to less attracted to her. This gave him time to withdraw a foolish infatuation so as to not marry her foolishly.

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But, though military men were allowed this liberty, yet care is here taken that they should not abuse it, that is,

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I. That they should not abuse themselves by doing it too hastily, though the captive was ever so desirable: "If thou wouldest have her to thy wife (Deu 21:10, Deu 21:11), it is true thou needest not ask her parents' consent, for she is thy captive, and is at thy disposal. But, 1. Thou shalt have no familiar intercourse till thou hast married her." This allowance was designed to gratify, not a filthy brutish lust, in the heat and fury of its rebellion against reason and virtue, but an honourable and generous affection to a comely and amiable person, though in distress; therefore he may make her his wife if he will, but he must not deal with her as with a harlot. 2. "Thou shalt not marry her of a sudden, but keep her a full month in thy house," Deu 21:12, Deu 21:13. This he must do either, (1.) That he may try to take his affection off from her; for he must know that, though in marrying her he does not do ill (so the law then stood), yet in letting her alone he does much better. Let her therefore shave her head, that he might not be enamoured with her locks, and let her nails grow (so the margin reads it), to spoil the beauty of her hand. Quisquid amas cupias non placuisse nimis - We should moderate our affection for those things which we are tempted to love inordinately. Or rather, (2.) This was done in token of her renouncing idolatry, and becoming a proselyte to the Jewish religion. The shaving of her head, the paring of her nails, and the changing of her apparel, signified her putting off her former conversation, which was corrupt in her ignorance, that she might become a new creature. She must remain in his house to be taught the good knowledge of the Lord and the worship of him: and the Jews say that if she refused, and continued obstinate in idolatry, he must not marry her. Note, The professors of religion must not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, Co2 6:14.

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II. That they should not abuse the poor captive. 1. She must have time to bewail her father and mother, from whom she was separated, and without whose consent and blessing she is now likely to be married, and perhaps to a common soldier of Israel, though in her country ever so nobly born and bred. To force a marriage till these sorrows were digested, and in some measure got over, and she was better reconciled to the land of her captivity by being better acquainted with it, would be very unkind. She must not bewail her idols, but be glad to part with them; to her near and dear relations only her affection must be thus indulged. 2. If, upon second thoughts, he that had brought her to his house with a purpose to marry her changed his mind and would not marry her, he might not make merchandise of her, as of his other prisoners, but must give her liberty to return, if she pleased, to her own country, because he had humbled her and afflicted her, by raising expectations and then disappointing them (Deu 21:14); having made a fool of her, he might not make a prey of her. This intimates how binding the laws of justice and honour are, particularly in the pretensions of love, the courting of affections, and the promises of marriage, which are to be looked upon as solemn things, that have something sacred in them, and therefore are not to be jested with.

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http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/henry/deu021.htm

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I will submit comments as I find them to address or come close to addressing the point.From this explanation above I can see that it was BETTER for the soldier NOT to marry the women if she would not choose to renounce her idolatry and become a perspective participant in Hebrew culture. Ie. Forcing a marriage could lead him into serious troubles.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Another comment from the same website: (Deut. 21:10-14)

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And seest - a beautiful woman - No forcible possession was allowed even in this case, when the woman was taken in war, and was, by the general consent of ancient nations, adjudged as a part of the spoils. The person to whose lot or share such a woman as is here described fell, might, if he chose, have her for a wife on certain conditions; but he was not permitted to use her under any inferior character.

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More on Deut 21:10-14 (with some accopanying music)Please watch in its entirety for most benefit.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPs2ii9P010Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

How about the details and circumstances of the command be examined FAIRLY to at least avoid jumping to the conclusion that God is a monster ?That is how we pretty much started down this road. Yes God is powerful. But in His creation He has not only wood, stones, rocks and things which have no will of there own. He has creatures who are problematic because they have their own wills. They have their own strong minds, strong opinions, and strong wills. And they may choose to take the other way besides God's way.Adam did.It was easy for God to say "Let there be ..." and cause things to come into existence. But in harmonizing the will of some of His creatures with His own, this was not as easy.At least I can see that the final destination to which history is moving is His will done on earth as it is in heaven and His kingdom come - ONE will.And Revelation 21 and 22 at least show the destination to which God is headed - no death, no tears, no sorrow, all the formers things have passed away. And the sons of God reigning forever and ever fully conformed to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.So at least I see the final outcome. I see how we can procrastinate in cooperation. But I see that mankind will eventually come around to the will of God. The existence of wars do not for me for a moment prove the non-existence of God.And I think the single worst thing that has ever happened on earth is man's condemning of the Son of God to be executed. And THAT tragedy God turned, by the power of His providence, to be the greatest redemptive blessing to the human race.As a Christian I hold to Paul's word that to those who love God, He has the power to cause ALL THINGS to work together for good. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Rom. 8:28) The Bible closes in Revelation 21 and 22 with a glimpse into eternity. To those who love God and are called to His eternal purpose, all things, everything, each thing, the whole compass of things God has caused to turn out to eternal good.Everything Satan has done to oppose the will of God God has turned the tables and completely accomplished His plan gloriously and victoriously.A glimpse of this Tragedy to Triumph is seen in the death and resurrection of Christ.The One who inhabits eternity is able to cause all things, including the misfortunes of wars, to work together for good to His sons of God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Adam was created innocent, neutral, and a pristine specimen of a best possible human man.He was presented with God's way and the other way.
He chose the other way. And the rest of the story is God's working to bring man back to His perfect will from the disaster Adam has unleashed. I think reducing this to a matter of being "nice" is way over simplification. Allow me to notice that you seem to be discribing the story of Cain and Abel somewhat.The difference being that Cain kills Abel through his intense envy and resentment. Somewhat like the story of Cain and Abel whom Cain murdered. This is the record of the first murder in history. Let's put this at "Why didn't God save Abel from being murdered? Why didn't God intervene and save Abel's life?"He certainly did intervene in other instances. Why not in this instance ?Its a good question. In the oldest book of the Bible - Job this ancient debate takes place with Job and his three friends. These were probably world renown wise men of the time. I am sure they had reputations for being exceedingly wise men. Job, Eliphaz, Zophar, and Bildad were great debaters (with Elihu as the probable recorder). "Why do bad things happen to good people?" was essentially the debate for some nearly 42 chapters.I am glad that God reserved on entire book of 42 chapters dedicated to "Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People?"I will not attempt in one Internet post to concisely sum up what this ancient debate between world renown wise men could not easily decide.Cut me a little slack. I'm not that smart.But I will say this. The central most BAD THING that happened to a GOOD MAN in which the good overcame, overpowered, and reigned victoriously over the evil is the death and resurrection of the Son of God - Jesus Christ.Wouldn't you have thought that a person like Jesus we should try our best to allow to hang around - to live? You know they tried to force Him to be a king.So when they came to execute Jesus, Peter was doing (by human standards) a good thing to wield his sword and defend his Master and Teacher to the death. But Jesus voluntarily stepped forward to be seized by the religious mob, unfairly judged a couple of times, and executed.The three days in which He was in the grave surely were days of the disciples contemplating "Why do bad things to good people?"
But on the third day He came out of death. I want to follow such a One. "In the world you have affliction, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) In one post I am not going to say more. Its too deep. There is absolutely, hear me now ... there is absolutely NO DOUBT in my heart that Satan will go down CRUSHED. We need to tell him that. Don't you know that John has already seen the believers built up in the New Jerusalem and the Devil in the lake of fire.Christ has overcome him. He is a defeated foe. We who receive Christ are allowing His Spirit to nullify Satan's work in our own beings. From the inside out, from the inside out Christ is defeating the foe.The Gospel is a proclamation of victory. Satan's only power left is that of his lying. The truth shall make us free. "If you abide in My word, you are truly My discples. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free ... Everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. And the slave does not abide in the house forever; the son does abide forever. If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:31-36) .Christ's kingdom is alive and well and growing. We have the masterkey. We know what God needs in us. We know how to cooperate with God for the accomplishing of His eternal purpose.
We know that the key is to inwardly allow Christ the life giving Spirit to saturate and permeate our beings and build us up together into His church.Can't you see that His coming is near? Reading the Bible is like reading the newspaper. And reading the newspaper is like reading the Bible. Like I said, we see where history is going. We see the final outcome. God's track record for predicting what will be in the future is very good.He spoke of Christ's coming a thousand plus years before Christ came. And He did come. And the speaking of His coming again, I am sure, cannot fail.When the weapons are turned to plows and the swords into pruning hooks and the nations study war no more, I want to be there to see. I don't share your pessimism.Not only will wars stop but the natural world itself will be restored into a harmonious state for first 1,000 years and then in the age of eternity.You see the creation is eagerly waiting for us, the children of God who have received the divine nature, to be sanctified, transformed, conformed and glorified. We are in the process day by day. "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed upon us.

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For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

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For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,

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In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

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And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:18-23) And HERE is where I put some of the verses to music -
http://www.scripturesongs.us/Rom8_18-19.mp3I would like to write out the whole chapter. But the present and the future of the believer in Christ is glorious - triumphant and victorious.You don't want to miss all this enjoyment, do you?Isaiah 2:4 - He will judge between the nations, and will render verdicts for the benefit of many. "They will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations will not raise swords against nations, and they will not learn warfare anymore. You see the peace that will envelope the globe first begins to work in the believer's heart. His salvation is from the inside out. It is from the innermost being outward into the soul, into the body, and into the entire environment.MAN was the cause of the collapse of creation. And the salvation of MAN is the cause of the heading up of all things under the Savior. The Savior of the world works from within ME and outward.Our tendency is to want Him to start over there with those other guys. He starts in you. And we Christians are foretasting what we will have as a full taste in the next age.We have an appetizer, a foretaste. We who have received Christ have "tasted of the powers of the age to come." (Hebrews 6:6) The very Holy Spirit is the pledge and down payment of the full installment that cannot fail to come. So we should open our hearts and invite Jesus to come into our hearts as the Holy Spirit. "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) And this living indwelling Spirit of Christ is the sure pledge and forestaste as a garuantee of the full taste to come -
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." (2 Cor. 5:5)

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" ... the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ..." (Eph. 1:14)

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"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God, He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 1:21,22) The indwelling of Jesus in the heart of the one who receives Him, is the pledge. We know that we know His kingdom will be manifested. "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

My purpose with Deuternomy 21:10-14 has been to show the measure of justness and goodness that exists there. I think the charges of Divine rape, divine genocide are made mostly by people who didn't read the Bible carefully for themselves. They are parroting what they heard some skeptic claim.God made ordinances concerning cultural situations which faced the ancient nations, including Israel.God said He hated divorce. But if it occurs, He delivered to Israel guidelines concerning divorce.God ordained one man for one woman in marriage. Because of the greediness and hardness of fallen man's heart He delivered through Moses instructions should polygamy occur.Slavery - involuntary indentured servitude was also component of the fallen world. Laws existed through Moses concerning slavery also.These laws do not discribe a utopian earth by any means. But most of them I can clearly see were good laws which revealed a movement towards a relatively more just society.My bible does not conclude with Leviticus. Much had to take place before the Christ came as God incarnate. One of the things which had to become clear to man is God's hatred for sins.Several severe instances should drive home God's hatred for sin. God cannot be all good and yet neutral towards sin. His goodness is also manifested in His judgments.How do I know God is good ? This I take on FAITH. For one Jesus Christ called His Father "Righteous Father" . And the integrity of Jesus is above questioning to me among all teachers on earth - period.You may call that an argument from authority if you wish. And an argument from authority is said to be logically non-rigorous. My argument from the authority of Jesus may be logically non=-rigourous from a philosophical standpoint. But that does not mean it is wrong. It is just logically non-rigourous in philosophy.Aside from never criticizing the God of the Old Testament, I have the complete record of His doings there. Most of which I can grasp. Most of which I can understand and see the goodness of His being.Some cases are more difficult. Some cases are harder. I have no shrunk from carefully examining any of these.As should have been demonstrated often the critics are not taking all things into account.Above there was some talk about the badness of the Canaanites. However upon reading Genesis carefully I see that while Abraham was there in Canaan some of the people were quite good. They even scolded Abraham about not being straightforward.I think Genesis makes a particular point that the people of Canaan had not gotten that bad as of yet. Abraham bowed to them. They were not ready for the judgment to come in another 400 some years.When God did bring in "the army of Jehovah" to conquer Canaan His plan was not to exterminate everyone. It was to drive them out and disperse them and to destroy their idols FIRST.Right here - " And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation, which I am about to SEND AWAY before you. Because they did all these things, so I abhorred them." (Lev. 20:23) Archeaology reveals Jericho as a military fortress.
The same is true of Ai.The slaughter passages, I believe, refer to the ones left as the hardest of the hard - combatants.The case of Rehab the woman and her family in the destruction of Jericho alerts us that annhilation to the inhabitants was not an innescapable destiny. Otherwise Rehab the harlot would have been slain along with everyone else in the city.This leads me to the matter of Israel circling the city of Jericho once for each of seven days. And then on the last day they circled the city seven times. I believe that each day the terrorfying army circled the city was God giving the repentant inhabitants a chance to escape the city. If true then we have seven days in which those on the walls of Jericho could witness the army that was going to attack. And they had opportunity to flee that place.In judgment by God then, there was also mercy. The Canaanites knew that a miraculous nation was wondering in the wilderness for 40 years. They knew that a mighty God had divided the Red Sea unto them.Now that God is good is taken on faith by me. You have presented reasons why I should not have such a faith. But I am not convinced by those reasons to envision an Almighty Supreme Governor of all creation who somehow needs lessons on ethics from His own creatures.Anyway the person MOST qualified to pronounce God as not good is Jesus Christ, to me. And He did not do so but refered to His "Righteous Father".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I thank you for your words of encouragement.
Bu I think you are reading your conservatism into the Bible.How does your anti-welfare critique deal with such a passage as this? "And if your brother becomes poor and he is unable to support himself as he lives beside you, then you shall support him, like a stranger and a sojourner, so that he may live beside you.

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Do not take any interest or gain from him, but fear your God, so that your brother may live beside you.

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You shall not give him your money at interest nor give him your food for gain.

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I am Jehovah your God, ... " (See Leviticus 25:35-37) Do you think Moses had a bad spell of rotten modern liberalism there ?Seriously, don't go down the road of confidence that in everything God thinks like a right winger.What do you think of the year of Jubilee? Every cycle of 50 years all depts were forgiven and deptors were released for a brand new start. Servants were all to be freed in the year of Jubilee.

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An institution of biblical law providing every 50 years for the release of Hebrew slaves and the restoration of family property. The jubilee was observed after every seven cycles of Sabbatical Years, each cycle being seven years....

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The laws of the jubilee year were such as to enable each Jew to begin life again on an equal basis. Thus, all land sold since the previous jubilee had to revert to the original owner, this ultimately meaning the original families to whom the land had been assigned after Joshua's conquest of the land. All Jewish slaves, including those who had voluntarily accepted a continuation of their slavery after their term had expired, had to be released and given a grant to enable them to begin life anew. If applied perfectly, these provisions would insure that no individual amassed excessive wealth, nor would any Jew be reduced to perpetual poverty and servitude.

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Read more: Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's QuestionsRead more: Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's QuestionsDo you find these laws too liberal for your tastes ?
Is there too much "welfare" consciousness in these laws for you?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Could you give me some examples of what I wrote which you say is "nonsense about God, (which is unsupportable)"?

Leviticus 25:25 is rather simple. You have one Hebrew looking out for the welfare of another. Just taken at face value, it is rather simple.Elsewhere if the cry of the oppressed employee goes up to God for unrighteous treatment, God said that this would become a sin -
"You shall not oppress a poor and needy hired servant among your brothers or among the sojourners with you, who are in your land within your gates.

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On the day he earns it [wages], you shall give him his wages, and the sun shall not go down upon it (for he is poor and his life depends on it); lest he cry against you to Jehovah and become sin in you."
(Deut. 24:14-15) This too is a righteous seeing to the welfare of hired servant. They were not to oppress him because he was poor. If the poor's cry goes up to God because of unfair oppression God would count the oppressor as sinning.Concerning the laws of God Moses said that the nations would see their righteous, wise, and prudent nation because of them - "Keep them and do them therefore; for this will be your wisdom and prudence in the sight of thepeoples who hear all these statutes and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and prident people." (Deut. 4:6) The surrounding peoples will see how much greater and more righteous are the laws of God to Israel - "And what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law which I am setting before you today? (v.8) These explemplary laws included not only sexual purity but also seeking the welfare of the poor until he can improve his lot and not oppressing the poor. No doubt destruction could come in a number of different ways. One extreme or the opposite exrtreme might bring destruction.So for the theocratic Israel of the Old Testament, we see laws to regulate promiscuity and laws to regulate unfettered greed and selfishness.I think I can take your response to mean you don't think a ordinance like Leviticus 25:25 is too liberal for you. Actually we might say that the better off Hebrew looking also to the welfare of the poorer brother beside him, was also conservative.Why? Because it was surely trying to CONSERVE the just and merciful nature of nation God had founded. On one hand many laws undoubtedly showed liberality should be practiced. On the other hand those same laws were conservative in their design to conserve and preserve the just nature of the society God had ordained.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That should have been Leviticus 25:35. And I think the law is simple. We are not reading out of the American Constitution. We are reading out of the law of Moses.That's what I meant by I think you are reading your conservatism into the Bible. There is a law there about your poor brother - "as he lives beside you". This is a neighberhood matter. You should like that because you hate big government. Right?This is a neighberhood matter of intimate local nature. Look at it - "And if your brother becomes poor, and he is unable to support himself [as he lives] beside you ..." This is someone right in close proximity to where you live.It is saying that if this poor man beside you is unable to support himself - " ... then you shall support him, like a stranger and a sojourner, so that me may live BESIDE YOU." This is a law about the people looking out for the welfare of the neighbor close to them - "beside" them. It is indeed simple.There is no garuantee that all the people will obey the law. But it is a window into the heart of God that He gave such a law to Israel.I agree with Moses that this ancient Israel was "a great nation that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law ..." (Deut. 4:8) Are you saying that this law in Leviticus 25:35 was certainly NOT righteous ? You seem to be saying that this was a very very bad and unjust law.I think you would be out of step with the assessment of the word of God concerning this. If you think God should not have commanded Israel thusly, then maybe you also think Deut. 15:7,8 is bad too? Deut. 15:7,8 - "If among you there is a needy one amidst your brothers within any of your gates in your land, which Jehovah your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart and you shall not close up your hand from your needy brother;

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But you must open your hand to him, and you must lend enough for his need in whatever he lacks." Do you think Jehovah God needed to sit down with Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter and get a little more education about the way the world works ?These are also included in the just and righteous statutes that Moses spoke about that would set Israel above the other nations as an example of a godly and just nation.The believing Hebrews also had other promises of God in which they could put their faith. For example a Psalm of David came latter - "Blessed is he who considers the poor; In the day of evil Jehovah will deliver him. May Jehovah keep him and preserve him alive. May he be blessed in the land; And do not give him over to the desire of his enemies." (Psalm 41:1,2) There was great benefit in the simpicity of belief and obedience to God's laws. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I read this sentence several times. I don't fully get what you mean here. I think what you wrote here describes maybe one aspect of what we can learn from the Bible.I mean quite more than just the SOUL of man is revealed. You said "The Bible is a book about the psychology of the individual ...".
The psychology deals with the psyche or the SOUL of man. But the soul is not the whole of man. Of course there is the spirit and soul and body as a three part division of man. "And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23) The Bible deals not only with the psyche or SOUL of individuals but the human spirit which is deeper. The human spirit is the "organ" with which man can contact God, touch God, and fellowship with God directly.It is in the innermost being, the human spirit, that men can be born again - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) So concerning your first sentence, that the Bible is about the psychology of the individual ... etc., I would want to add crucial and vital matters are revealed about the spirit of man. Crucial matters are mentioned concerning the body of man as well.God's salvation includes -1.) the regeneration of the human spirit,2.) the transformation of the soul,3.) the transfiguration of the body.As you can see in the above John 3:6. It is God the capital S Spirit Who is the cause of the new birth of the small s human spirit. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit"Not only would I like to mention that the Bible is about the human spirit as well as the human soul. The Bible is about the corporate and the collective as well as the individual.Rather than a lot of isolated spiritual people running around in a totally individualistic way, the Bible consumates in a "city" which is built up as a corporate expression of God mingled with an huge collective. The New Jerusalem is a corporate expression of God and man united and interwoven together. She is an enlargement of Christ the Godman as a corporate and aggregate "city" Godman.In short God's eternal purpose is to mass produce sons of God as people redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, built up in love, resurrected, glorified and made a corporate expression of God and man mingled together.I might say the Bible is in three major sections. These sections are not equal in length.1.) God planned and created
2.) Man fell and ruined
3.) God recovered and fulfills His planEverything in the Bible is related to and headed towards Revelation chapters 21 and 22. This is the destination. Of course many things are about Satan working to oppose God's eternal purpose. Such as the "sad" and negative things you spoke of.The Bible is about God operating to join Himself with man so that man and God become a mingled, united; a blended entity. The focus and prototype of this in Jesus Christ who is God/man and the Lord and Savior of the world. He is also called "the Desire of all the nations": "And I will shake all the nations, and the Desire of all the nations will come; and I will fill this house with glory, says Jehovah of hosts." (Haggai 2:7) Christ is "the Desire of all the nations". Only Christ's coming will bring in the righteous justice for all peoples as the nations desire. Sometimes we have to back down on our erroneous positions for sure. But sometimes we may even need to backdown on are correct positions.That is we can be right but "dead right". We can be simply apart from Christ Himself. We can be right but apart from Christ. I say we can be even "good" yet apart from God Himself.In Genesis man was placed before two trees as two sources of living. One was the tree of life. The other was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.I don't know if you have ever thought about this. It was not a tree of good on one side and a tree of evil on the other side. Both the knowledge of good and of evil were on one tree. That made is rather complicated. On one tree there was the knowledge of good and evil. And on the other tree was the life, God's very life, the life of God - uncreated and divine - the tree of life.We must repent of our evil to God, no doubt.
But often we must repent of our good which is Godless, in order to join to God. We can be right but away from God as life.This passage shows the great dichotomy before the first man was the Life of God verses the knowledge of good and evil apart from God - "And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every treee that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:9) The Bible shows that God's eternal purpose can only be achieved by a man of life. That is a man joined to God as the uncreated divine life. A good man is good. But a mere good man cannot achieve to eternal purpose of God. For God wants a Godman and not just a goodman. God wants a man whose human life is saturated and permeated with God Himself to express the incorporation of the uncreated Divine into the human created. I was needling you a little bit. Now we were talking about God's gradual operation and move to achieve what He eventually obtains in Revelation 21 and 22.On the way we have the theocratic nation of Israel in the Old Testament. God gave her many laws. I wanted you to admit that these laws are as Moses said - " righteous " -
" And what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law which I am setting before you today?" (Deut. 4:7,8) Some of those judgments and statutes embody a liberality in considering the welfare of its citizens. There is no use in denying this.One of those statutes was about not letting the poorer man living beside you simply sink into destitution. They were like people as you and I. I am sure they considered "Well how did this guy GET that way in the firsts place. Maybe it was all his own fault. If so then WHY should I help him?"I don't think human nature has changed. Of course the Hebrews could have similar thoughts. But the statute was the statute just the same (Leviticus 25:35).In these righteous laws given to Israel there was quite a lot also concerning not oppressing the poor. Latter in Proverbs we read that to oppress the poor is to insult the Creator God - "He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, But he who is gracious to the needy honors Him." (Proverbs 14:31) The Bible depicts God's righteousness as very much involving His believer's liberality - " Hallelujah! Blessed is the man who fears Jeohvah, who delights greatly in His commandments (v.1) ... He has scattered abroad; he has given to the needy; His righteousness endures forever; (v.9) (Psalm 112:1,9) This scattering abroad and giving to the needy is liberal. There is no sense in trying to deny it.Of course the Bible also shows that there is an appropriate time for things under heaven. That is a time for this thing and a time for the opposite. "For everything there is a season, And a time for every purpose under heaven ...

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A time to keep, and a time to throw away." (Ecc. 3:1,6b) It is not always the time to keep what you have.
it is not always the time to give away what you have.
The word of God says that there is a time for one and a time for the other. So we have to be flexible before God.Remember I said that sometimes we need to repent of our good doing if it is apart from God. If you are an American like me, then we have recourse to elections and vote people in place who we believe will perhaps improve the laws of the nation.But looking at the laws that God ordained for His one and only theocratic nation of Israel - those laws were all just and righteous. That is unless you disagree with Moses's assessment. They were not utopian. And when Christ came He said things to transcend many of those laws.One of the most striking instances was the would be stoning of the woman caught in the act of adultery in John 8. You know the story. The law of Moses called for her to be stoned. But the Son of God spoke a transcending truth that pierced through the conscience of everyone standing there - "Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. What then do you say? But they said this to tempt Him, so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote with His finger on the ground.

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But when they persisted in questioning Him, He stood up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let Him be the first to throw a stone at her.

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And He stooped down and wrote on the ground, And when they heard that, they went out one by one, beginning with the older ones. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman stood where she was, in the midst. ... Neither do I condemn you; go and from now on sin no more." (See John 8:1-11) While we excercise our democratic rights to vote in law makers we think are best for the nation, we Christians should try to introduce people to the one who sets free from sin and does not just condemn.
This is what I want to be about - spreading the Gospel of the kingdom and the Gospel of the grace of God.You're welcome to use your citizen's right to enact laws you think are better for this US. I haven't heard you yet want to admit that the law in Leviticus 25:35 a just law from God to Israel. I am not a political activist. I think the two opposing sides of the abortion issue should seek to work together on what they CAN agree upon. The number of unwanted pregnancies should be reduced.A statute like Leviticus 25:35 said nothing about examining the neighbor to pass judgment upon him (or her).In fact the statute there is not unlike Christ's teaching of being liberal with assistance we have to provide without questioning. "To him who asks of you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, do not turn away." (Matt. 5:42) Christ is describing the life of another Person. You cannot live that way anymore than I can. It requires another Person named Jesus to come into us. His instruction cuts deep at the root of human anxiety and selfishness.Christ is teaching a life that is so wholly trusting in God and in God's trustworthiness that it can without fear, give away to another in need. He is talking about us being reborn by the the Father's divine life and walking in Christ.The apostle John echoes the same high standard of morality to the churching audience of his letter - "But whoever has the livelihood of the world and sees that his brother has need and shuts up his affections from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" (1 John 3:17) The God of Leviticus has now become a man Jesus Christ. And He can come into us and be our life. The problem of the disintegrating family is critical in the US.
The problem of intermarriage of close relatives in the mountainous areas of rural US is also a physiological hazard, one statistician told me.Rampant promotion of promiscuity through "Free Speech" laws is another problem. There are many very serious problems with the US.Some people want everyone to be born. But they also want the easiest and most efficient way to take away someone's life with convenience should the need arise - a GUN. They insist everyone be born. But they also insist that in a split second they be able to efficiently take away a life at the pull of a trigger.I tend to vote democratic. But my final trust is in the coming of "the Desire of all the nations". All the world govenments will be shattered and blow away as shaft in the wind. You read Daniel no doubt.In the book of Daniel human governments are seen from two points of view. They are seen from the standpoint of man on earth and from God's view above.From our point of view these empires may appear as a noble human image of gold, silver, iron, stc. From God's point of view they are as monsters destroying people's lives.The worldly governments may seem noble from our side of things. But every one of them are also as beasts crushing people, shattering people, destroying people's lives.So my ultimate trust is in the kingdom of God and His will being done on earth as it is in heaven. Christ is coming to scatter the great image and Himself fill the whole earth as a mountain.Are you praying for this? Are you looking forward to this?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.