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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 826 of 5179 (685849)
12-27-2012 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 817 by onifre
12-27-2012 3:25 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Not the point I was trying to convey in my previous post but, sure, citizens should NOT take the law into their own hands.
Nobody's talking about "taking the law into your own hands."
I don't support the ownership of concealable handguns or assault rifles. I see no point to them.
The point is to shoot someone who is going to kill you before the police can arrive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 3:25 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 5:21 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 827 of 5179 (685850)
12-27-2012 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by Percy
12-27-2012 3:05 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
So one effective way of reducing criminals' access to guns would be to take them away from everyone else.
But surely you don't think you can conflate denying access to new guns with seizing guns from criminals without the rest of us noticing, right? Even if you completely disarmed legitimate gun owners - and that's sidestepping the ethics of penalizing a vast majority of responsible gun owners for the actions of a criminal element they're not responsible for, as most guns aren't even stolen even once - and thereby prevented 600,000 guns from entering criminal hands each year, that wouldn't do anything to remove the guns already in criminal hands, or prevent criminals from gaining guns simply by stealing them from each other.
And in the meantime you've eliminated basically any possibility of regular people from participating in their own defense against armed criminals. As we've seen in the UK that doesn't work well for society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Percy, posted 12-27-2012 3:05 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by Panda, posted 12-27-2012 5:28 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 839 by Tangle, posted 12-27-2012 6:47 PM crashfrog has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 828 of 5179 (685856)
12-27-2012 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 824 by New Cat's Eye
12-27-2012 4:23 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Guns can be made privately and ammunition can be refilled.
I get that. But evidence of places that have these laws show that people aren't going out of their way to manufacture their own handguns and assault rifles.
You're right that eventually it'll run out, but I think you far underestimate how long it would actually take. And I don't think those who would back you are willing to wait many multiple years for the plan to be implemented.
Rome wasn't built in a day. I'm good with starting it now and having my children's children reap the benefits of it. Slavery was under the same time constraints, yet here we are with a black prez.
Handguns are the best for personal defense. I don't see those going away.
Says you. I'll take a shotgun over a handgun for home defense any day.
-Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-27-2012 4:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-27-2012 7:52 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 829 of 5179 (685857)
12-27-2012 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 4:36 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Nobody's talking about "taking the law into your own hands."
Well it seems like you are. The job of the police is to carry out deadly force when need be. I personally don't believe citizens should be walking around with the same authority.
I can however see the point to defending your home though. But for that we're good with shotguns and or rifles.
The point is to shoot someone who is going to kill you before the police can arrive.
I believe the point is that no one shoots anyone, period.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 4:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 832 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 5:58 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 830 of 5179 (685858)
12-27-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 4:27 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
You are aware, surely, that hunting rifles, assault rifles, and handguns use the same ammunition? Or can, anyway.
Explain what you mean before I "misrepresent" what you're saying. Be specific as to how you mean they use the same ammunition.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 4:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 6:04 PM onifre has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(3)
Message 831 of 5179 (685861)
12-27-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 4:41 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
CF writes:
And in the meantime you've eliminated basically any possibility of regular people from participating in their own defense against armed criminals. As we've seen in the UK that doesn't work well for society.
More lies.
Repetitive, boring lies.
*yawn*

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 4:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 6:05 PM Panda has replied
 Message 877 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2012 10:29 AM Panda has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 832 of 5179 (685865)
12-27-2012 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by onifre
12-27-2012 5:21 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Well it seems like you are. The job of the police is to carry out deadly force when need be.I believe the point is that no one shoots anyone, period.
Guns aren't the only tool for committing the crime of murder. You can be stabbed, strangled, or beat to death with a bludgeon as well, and a handgun is an appropriate tool in defending yourself against those attacks, as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 5:21 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 6:18 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 837 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-27-2012 6:23 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 833 of 5179 (685867)
12-27-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by onifre
12-27-2012 5:22 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Be specific as to how you mean they use the same ammunition.
I mean that while in theory there are loads that are best for hunting, best for semi-auto assault rifles, and best for handguns, in practice there is substantial overlap about which guns use which ammo. The "varmint-hunting" .22 long rifle is also a popular caliber for small handguns. 9mm Parabellum is shot from both pistols and rifles. The classic Western rifle, the Winchester Lever-Action Repeater, is most commonly chambered for .45 Colt.
I mean, suppose we enact your "no ammo for handguns and assault rifles" law, and the guys who make 9mm and .223 simply say "well, we're not making handgun or assault rifle rounds. We're making 9mm and .223, which are popular and effective hunting loads, and if someone should decide to load them into pistols or assault rifles which were already chambered for those ammunitions, what's that to us?" Now what? How are they, in fact, not legally in the right since "hunting ammunition" means any ammunition used by hunters in long rifles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 5:22 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 6:23 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 834 of 5179 (685868)
12-27-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by Panda
12-27-2012 5:28 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
"Fuck those children", right, Panda?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by Panda, posted 12-27-2012 5:28 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 6:24 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 859 by Panda, posted 12-27-2012 10:26 PM crashfrog has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 835 of 5179 (685872)
12-27-2012 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 832 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 5:58 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
You can be stabbed, strangled, or beat to death with a bludgeon as well, and a handgun is an appropriate tool in defending yourself against those attacks, as well.
Or, any one of those other items. I don't see the need to arm ourselves with handguns while walking around. A tazer, some pepper spray and some classes in MMA should ward off any would be attackers. Unless they have a gun. Which is the whole point.
Less guns, more fist-to-cuffs. In your home it's different. But there, again, a shotgun works just fine.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 5:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 7:36 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 836 of 5179 (685873)
12-27-2012 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 6:04 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
I mean that while in theory there are loads that are best for hunting, best for semi-auto assault rifles, and best for handguns, in practice there is substantial overlap about which guns use which ammo. The "varmint-hunting" .22 long rifle is also a popular caliber for small handguns. 9mm Parabellum is shot from both pistols and rifles. The classic Western rifle, the Winchester Lever-Action Repeater, is most commonly chambered for .45 Colt.
I mean, suppose we enact your "no ammo for handguns and assault rifles" law, and the guys who make 9mm and .223 simply say "well, we're not making handgun or assault rifle rounds. We're making 9mm and .223, which are popular and effective hunting loads, and if someone should decide to load them into pistols or assault rifles which were already chambered for those ammunitions, what's that to us?" Now what? How are they, in fact, not legally in the right since "hunting ammunition" means any ammunition used by hunters in long rifles?
That makes sense.
I guess some work on what legal ammunition gets manufactured and sold would also be required. So there's no overlap. This is where experts would need to come together and figure out the best way to do that.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 6:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 842 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 7:43 PM onifre has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 837 of 5179 (685874)
12-27-2012 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 832 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 5:58 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Guns aren't the only tool for committing the crime of murder. You can be stabbed, strangled, or beat to death with a bludgeon as well, and a handgun is an appropriate tool in defending yourself against those attacks, as well.
Or a necktie, I hear that that works just as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 5:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 838 of 5179 (685875)
12-27-2012 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 834 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 6:05 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
"Fuck those children", right, Panda?
I laughed at this earlier. I think people got too sensitive about it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 6:05 PM crashfrog has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 839 of 5179 (685876)
12-27-2012 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 4:41 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Crashfrog writes:
And in the meantime you've eliminated basically any possibility of regular people from participating in their own defense against armed criminals. As we've seen in the UK that doesn't work well for society.
This is factually false.
You're behaving no better than a denialist YEC. You can have your arguments and opinions, but when you resort to distorting facts, you lose all credibility.
I doubt you have a defensible argument - I haven't heard one yet - but if you have, no-one will hear it if you have to dissemble to make it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 4:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 7:39 PM Tangle has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 840 of 5179 (685880)
12-27-2012 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 835 by onifre
12-27-2012 6:18 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
Or, any one of those other items.
Except that it's already been made illegal to carry those items, based on the premise that legitimate self-defense is accomplished with handguns and the others aren't protected by the Second Amendment. And it stands to reason that, broadly speaking, to the extent that lethal weapons form somewhat of a hierarchy of danger, you're better protected by the superior weapon than by the inferior one.
A tazer, some pepper spray and some classes in MMA should ward off any would be attackers.
Based on what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 6:18 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by onifre, posted 12-27-2012 8:11 PM crashfrog has replied

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