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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Not the point I was trying to convey in my previous post but, sure, citizens should NOT take the law into their own hands. Nobody's talking about "taking the law into your own hands."
I don't support the ownership of concealable handguns or assault rifles. I see no point to them. The point is to shoot someone who is going to kill you before the police can arrive.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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So one effective way of reducing criminals' access to guns would be to take them away from everyone else. But surely you don't think you can conflate denying access to new guns with seizing guns from criminals without the rest of us noticing, right? Even if you completely disarmed legitimate gun owners - and that's sidestepping the ethics of penalizing a vast majority of responsible gun owners for the actions of a criminal element they're not responsible for, as most guns aren't even stolen even once - and thereby prevented 600,000 guns from entering criminal hands each year, that wouldn't do anything to remove the guns already in criminal hands, or prevent criminals from gaining guns simply by stealing them from each other. And in the meantime you've eliminated basically any possibility of regular people from participating in their own defense against armed criminals. As we've seen in the UK that doesn't work well for society.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Guns can be made privately and ammunition can be refilled. I get that. But evidence of places that have these laws show that people aren't going out of their way to manufacture their own handguns and assault rifles.
You're right that eventually it'll run out, but I think you far underestimate how long it would actually take. And I don't think those who would back you are willing to wait many multiple years for the plan to be implemented. Rome wasn't built in a day. I'm good with starting it now and having my children's children reap the benefits of it. Slavery was under the same time constraints, yet here we are with a black prez.
Handguns are the best for personal defense. I don't see those going away. Says you. I'll take a shotgun over a handgun for home defense any day. -Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Nobody's talking about "taking the law into your own hands." Well it seems like you are. The job of the police is to carry out deadly force when need be. I personally don't believe citizens should be walking around with the same authority. I can however see the point to defending your home though. But for that we're good with shotguns and or rifles.
The point is to shoot someone who is going to kill you before the police can arrive. I believe the point is that no one shoots anyone, period. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
You are aware, surely, that hunting rifles, assault rifles, and handguns use the same ammunition? Or can, anyway. Explain what you mean before I "misrepresent" what you're saying. Be specific as to how you mean they use the same ammunition. - Oni
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Panda Member (Idle past 3712 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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CF writes:
More lies. And in the meantime you've eliminated basically any possibility of regular people from participating in their own defense against armed criminals. As we've seen in the UK that doesn't work well for society. Repetitive, boring lies.*yawn* "There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Well it seems like you are. The job of the police is to carry out deadly force when need be.I believe the point is that no one shoots anyone, period. Guns aren't the only tool for committing the crime of murder. You can be stabbed, strangled, or beat to death with a bludgeon as well, and a handgun is an appropriate tool in defending yourself against those attacks, as well.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Be specific as to how you mean they use the same ammunition. I mean that while in theory there are loads that are best for hunting, best for semi-auto assault rifles, and best for handguns, in practice there is substantial overlap about which guns use which ammo. The "varmint-hunting" .22 long rifle is also a popular caliber for small handguns. 9mm Parabellum is shot from both pistols and rifles. The classic Western rifle, the Winchester Lever-Action Repeater, is most commonly chambered for .45 Colt. I mean, suppose we enact your "no ammo for handguns and assault rifles" law, and the guys who make 9mm and .223 simply say "well, we're not making handgun or assault rifle rounds. We're making 9mm and .223, which are popular and effective hunting loads, and if someone should decide to load them into pistols or assault rifles which were already chambered for those ammunitions, what's that to us?" Now what? How are they, in fact, not legally in the right since "hunting ammunition" means any ammunition used by hunters in long rifles?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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"Fuck those children", right, Panda?
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
You can be stabbed, strangled, or beat to death with a bludgeon as well, and a handgun is an appropriate tool in defending yourself against those attacks, as well. Or, any one of those other items. I don't see the need to arm ourselves with handguns while walking around. A tazer, some pepper spray and some classes in MMA should ward off any would be attackers. Unless they have a gun. Which is the whole point. Less guns, more fist-to-cuffs. In your home it's different. But there, again, a shotgun works just fine. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I mean that while in theory there are loads that are best for hunting, best for semi-auto assault rifles, and best for handguns, in practice there is substantial overlap about which guns use which ammo. The "varmint-hunting" .22 long rifle is also a popular caliber for small handguns. 9mm Parabellum is shot from both pistols and rifles. The classic Western rifle, the Winchester Lever-Action Repeater, is most commonly chambered for .45 Colt. I mean, suppose we enact your "no ammo for handguns and assault rifles" law, and the guys who make 9mm and .223 simply say "well, we're not making handgun or assault rifle rounds. We're making 9mm and .223, which are popular and effective hunting loads, and if someone should decide to load them into pistols or assault rifles which were already chambered for those ammunitions, what's that to us?" Now what? How are they, in fact, not legally in the right since "hunting ammunition" means any ammunition used by hunters in long rifles?
That makes sense. I guess some work on what legal ammunition gets manufactured and sold would also be required. So there's no overlap. This is where experts would need to come together and figure out the best way to do that. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Guns aren't the only tool for committing the crime of murder. You can be stabbed, strangled, or beat to death with a bludgeon as well, and a handgun is an appropriate tool in defending yourself against those attacks, as well. Or a necktie, I hear that that works just as well.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
"Fuck those children", right, Panda? I laughed at this earlier. I think people got too sensitive about it. - Oni
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Crashfrog writes: And in the meantime you've eliminated basically any possibility of regular people from participating in their own defense against armed criminals. As we've seen in the UK that doesn't work well for society. This is factually false. You're behaving no better than a denialist YEC. You can have your arguments and opinions, but when you resort to distorting facts, you lose all credibility. I doubt you have a defensible argument - I haven't heard one yet - but if you have, no-one will hear it if you have to dissemble to make it.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Or, any one of those other items. Except that it's already been made illegal to carry those items, based on the premise that legitimate self-defense is accomplished with handguns and the others aren't protected by the Second Amendment. And it stands to reason that, broadly speaking, to the extent that lethal weapons form somewhat of a hierarchy of danger, you're better protected by the superior weapon than by the inferior one.
A tazer, some pepper spray and some classes in MMA should ward off any would be attackers. Based on what?
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