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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3664 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined:
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But really, cavediver? Yep, really - as per what Rahvin wrote, far more eloquantly than I can muster at the moment. I'm not otherwise re-entering the discussion because my brain can't really get beyond "oh my fucking god, this gun obsession is fucking insane"
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Lethality is not binary. Firearms are more lethal than fists, in the same way that a tazer is less lethal than a handgun. But lethal is lethal. That's why if you try to stab a cop, they open fire with their handguns. They don't try to match you knife for knife, that's idiotic. Once you decide to use lethal force, your victim is entitled to use lethal force against you. It may not matter that you may not have intended to use lethal force, for instance if you're laboring under the mistaken assumption that a couple of punches might hurt and injure them real bad, but not kill them. Every now and then someone has an "eggshell skull" and those people are entitled not to die simply because you had no idea that punching them repeatedly would be fatal.
And yet you advocate using a gun, which is in effect a form of execution. Not at all. It's not an execution in any way. An execution is death delivered as a punishment - i.e. retribution for an act. I'm talking about self-defense. That's when someone is engaged in actions that will result in your serious injury or death if they aren't stopped. You're morally entitled to stop them. If that means killing them, then you're morally entitled to kill them. It doesn't always mean killing them, though. Some people will stop when you produce the handgun. You're not entitled to kill them, then. Some people won't - they have to be shot because they won't stop, otherwise. They have to be stopped or you'll die. They won't stop unless they're killed. I don't understand the moral reasoning you arrive at that suggests that you have to let them kill you because it would be wrong to kill them. Pacifism isn't a suicide pact. People have a right to be alive.
Not use a taser, or pepper spray, or his own fists, or anything less lethal than a gun. You can't use a taser or pepper spray if you don't have a taser or pepper spray. You can't use your fists if they're not strong enough to stop the other guy, or you don't know how to throw an effective punch. It's a firearm or nothing, sometimes, and in that kind of situation people have a moral right to use the lethal force required to defend themselves.
Because you escalate the violence. No, you de-escalate it. You draw down on your assailant and he backs off or you fire. Either way, he stops. The fight's over. Violence has come to an end. Using a weapon to end a fight is a fundamentally de-escalatory act. That's the point - de-escalating the confrontation by ending it.
Marty is only "forced" to face any risk if he steps up and fights Biff. He could try to talk. He could ask for help. He could run. He can only run if he can run. Again, you assume equally-physically-capable combatants, but again I remind you that it's specifically the physically under-abled who are most at risk for violent crime. You keep ignoring that. Marty can try to talk Biff out of it but words can't make Biff stop if Biff chooses not to stop. If Biff won't make the choice to stop punching then he has to be made to stop, and that's what lethal force provides for.
But none of that requires me to use a gun. Of course not. But in some situations a gun is required. Just because you expect to have other options in every situation doesn't mean you will, or that everybody will. People have to make their own choices about how to defend themselves. You can't make them for them, because you'll be wrong and it's not going to be you who suffers for it.
What you've done is escalated the risk for a thief Good! The risks of breaking the law should be high, indeed.
It's a simple false dilemma, crash - you don't need a gun, there are less lethal methods at your disposal. At my disposal? Yes. That's why I don't own a gun. At your disposal? Yes. That's why you don't own a gun. At everybody's disposal, in every situation? No. And that's why we should not stop law-abiding people from owning guns for their own protection, if they choose.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Instead, we should shoot each other to death. Nobody should be shot under any circumstances unless it's absolutely necessary to prevent them from hurting another person. I continue to fail to see what's unreasonable about that.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Yep, really - as per what Rahvin wrote, far more eloquantly than I can muster at the moment. Right, but you didn't upvote Rahvin and his eloquence, you upvoted a torrent of filth from Hooah. Come on, just admit it - you upvoted a message because it was taking the piss out of me. (That is what you guys say, right?) Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2
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You can't use a taser or pepper spray if you don't have a taser or pepper spray. You can't use your fists if they're not strong enough to stop the other guy, or you don't know how to throw an effective punch. It's a firearm or nothing, sometimes, and in that kind of situation people have a moral right to use the lethal force required to defend themselves. You can't use less lethal options if you don't have them, but you can use a gun. Because apparently you have that and no other option. ...What?The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Just stop trolling already. This has been a decent thread. Don't ruin it.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I don't understand your confusion. You can't use a weapon you don't have.
Frankly, Rahvin, you may want to look into why you're so frequently confused by trivial truths.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You can't use less lethal options if you don't have them, but you can use a gun. Because apparently you have that and no other option. ...What? If you make guns illegal, then you're saying that there can never be a situation where its appropriate for somebody to use a gun to defend themself... which is obviously wrong. Its not an argument that people should use guns; the argument is that people should be able to choose to use a gun if they see fit. Its an argument against making guns illegal, not an argument advocating for the use of guns. Its not up to us to decide what defense is appropriate for the people who are the ones in the desperate situation, its up to them.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
It's as important not to punch people as it is not to shoot them. So killing someone is the same a punching them? If someone punches you, that gives you the right to kill them? Guns are designed to kill, fists are not. You've not rebutted this point. Not with evidence or even successful argument. Your say so is insufficient.
Then you're wrong. The man didn't accidentally punch Houdini. You're misrepresenting me. That's not what I said.
And deliberately punching someone as hard as you can, and them dying from it, is not a freak accident either. It's exactly what you expect to happen when you physically attack someone and don't stop. You are still going to stick with ONE PERSON as your data point? And you can't even get the details right?
quote: Wiki. See that? See how difficult it is to look shit up?
No. We should strive for not being beat to death, and to not beating people to death. So we should instead kill each other on purpose?
I hate to talk to you like a baby, Hooah, but that's about the level you seem to be able to comprehend - being punched by someone is so dangerous that even those who are trained to be punched, even those who are using safety equipment in order to withstand punches, even those who have on-site emergency medical personel ready at a moment's notice are occasionally killed as a result of being punched. And I love talking to you like you are a fucking retard because you are. Guns are meant to kill people. that's what they do. You still haven't shown that punches are sufficiently deadly as to warrant killing someone who is punching you. Your say so is not enough. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So killing someone is the same a punching them? Did I say that killing someone was the same as punching them?
Guns are designed to kill, fists are not. You've not rebutted this point. Fists aren't "designed" for anything since fists weren't designed, they evolved. But regardless, fists can and do kill.
You're misrepresenting me. That's not what I said. Regardless, the man did not accidentally punch Houdini.
You are still going to stick with ONE PERSON as your data point? I'm not giving you "data points." You asked how I knew that a person could be punched to death. The answer is, I know that a person could be punched to death because a person was punched to death. Harry Houdini, in fact, was punched to death. You've not presented an argument that he wasn't, so he stands as proof that it's possible to be punched to death.
So we should instead kill each other on purpose? Well, we shouldn't kill each other by accident, should we? If another human being has to die it should certainly be as a result of rational deliberation and conscious act. I'd prefer that nobody die. I think everybody would. But if someone has to die it should be those who, by their own action, made it inevitable that someone must die.
You still haven't shown that punches are sufficiently deadly as to warrant killing someone who is punching you. How much deadlier than "deadly" would they have to be, Hooah? Any lethal force used against you without provocation morally justifies the use of lethal force in self-defense.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It's as important not to punch people as it is not to shoot them.
So killing someone is the same a punching them? If someone punches you, that gives you the right to kill them? How can you be so bad at logic? Those are complete non-sequitors.
And I love talking to you like you are a fucking retard because you are. What is so hard about following the rules here? Stop acting like such a jerk already.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Fists aren't "designed" for anything since fists weren't designed, they evolved. But regardless, fists can and do kill. Well aren't you just Mr. fucking pedantic. Is the primary ues of the human fist to be a tool for murder?
Regardless, the man did not accidentally punch Houdini. Who said that he did? You're creating a strawman to misrepresent me.
You asked how I knew that a person could be punched to death. Oh look, crash is misrepresenting me again. I never said that. What I did ask you for was sufficient evidence that guns are an appropriate escalation to someone fighting you. You have yet to do this. Secondly, I (as Rahvin already has) can point out that people like the police and military do NOT take this stance, so why should you?
You've not presented an argument that he wasn't, so he stands as proof that it's possible to be punched to death. Look at that, yet ANOTHER misrepresentation! I never said it was impossible. I said it was unnecessary to bring a gun to a fist fight.
Any lethal force used against you without provocation morally justifies the use of lethal force in self-defense. Well, yea. But we are talking about a fist fight. A fist fight (with no other weapons) isn't necessarily lethal unless, like I said waaaayyy upthread, you are fighting Bas Rutten or Mike Tyson. You have not shown, like I asked you to waaaayyy upthread, that there are a significant enough amount of death by fist fights as to make it acceptable to kill someone who is trying to fist fight you."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Those are complete non-sequitors. Tell crash, not me. he is the one who claims it to be ok to shoot someone when they punch you.
What is so hard about following the rules here? Stop acting like such a jerk already. Funny how you say nothing to crash. Oh, right, you guys are lovers."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Tell crash, not me. he is the one who claims it to be ok to shoot someone when they punch you. So everyone should always just lay down and take a beating every time somebody tries to punch them!?
Funny how you say nothing to crash. Oh, right, you guys are lovers. You're not even good at trolling. Pathetic. You should be suspended.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
So everyone should always just lay down and take a beating every time somebody tries to punch them!? Did I say that? Or are you misrepresenting me, just like crash?
You're not even good at trolling. Mayb you should, once again, go look up what trolling is since you have no grasp on what it actually is.
You should be suspended. Then go cry in the report problems thread, ya big cry baby. Or better yet, tell your buddy to not call people names or insult people if YOU can't handle the outcome."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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