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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 5 of 383 (686806)
01-04-2013 9:17 AM


Ephesians
I am happy that we will be discussing Ephesians. This is a tremendous epistle. The church in Ephesus must have been so opened to the Apostle Paul that he could boldly share with them all that was deep in his heart concerning the revelation he received from God.
It is also an epistle on the Triune God, the Trinity in His operation to produce the church. Take for example the first 14 verses.
Verses 3 - 6 conclude with a praise to the Father.
Verses 7 - 12 conclude with a praise to the Son.
Verses 13-14 conclude with a praise to the Spirit.
Let's take a look with the relevant portion in bright yellow:
quote:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestination us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the Beloved."
This praise ends this section on the Father's selection and predestination for God's eternal purpose.
quote:

In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses, according to the riches of His grace, which He caused to abound to us in all wisdom and prudence, making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself, Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him; In whom also we were designated as an inheritance, having been predestinated according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
that we would be to the praise of His glory who have first hoped in Christ.

This praise ends the section on the Son's redemption for the accomplishment of God's eternal purpose.
quote:

In whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing, you were sealed with
the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

This praise concludes the section of the Holy Spirit's sealing and pledging for the accomplishment of God's eternal purpose.
So we have:
1.) The operation of the Father (vs. 3-6)
2.) The operation of the Son (vs. 7-12)
3.) The operation of the Holy Spirit (vs. 13-14)
The Trinity is thoroughly energized for the producing of the church and ultimately the New Jerusalem, which is the enlarged church to contain both Old Testament and New Testament believers, both Jew and Gentile as "ONE NEW MAN" (2:15) - a new divinized humanity as the capital of the new universe.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Richh, posted 01-12-2013 6:15 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 7 of 383 (686819)
01-04-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jazzns
01-04-2013 10:49 AM


Re: Authenticity?
Is it relevant to discuss if Ephesians is authentic?
Should we put spiritual trust in a book that lies about who wrote it in order to gain acceptance?
Should we simply take your word for it that you know a lie has been written in the letter? On your pronouncement, we all simply nod that there is a deliberate LIE in the Greek text of this letter?
That is a lot to ask. "Yes, yes, yes. Ephesians LIES to us. Yes, yes of course!"
What are your credentials in the science of New Testament textural criticism ? What is your formal training in that field if I might ask?
If you have none, please indicate the authorities you are referencing in putting out this arguable information.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jazzns, posted 01-04-2013 10:49 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jazzns, posted 01-04-2013 12:42 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(3)
Message 9 of 383 (686835)
01-04-2013 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jazzns
01-04-2013 12:42 PM


Re: Authenticity?
No. Nor did I suggest this.
No, come to think of it, you didn't.
As I re-read the post now, you didn't state that.
False accusation on my part. I apologize.
The issue of the authorship of Ephesians happens to be an open question. My overall question is that if there is any value in examining Ephesians, is that value necessarily reduced by knowedge or suggestion that Ephesians not written by who claims to have written it nor for the audience it claims to be given to.
Well, if the imposter is lying, it is interesting that throughout the high level of morality is taught.
Ie. "Therefore having put off the lie, speak truth each one with his neighbor, for we are members one of another." (4:25)
This would be very ironic. That is an imposter passing on a lie within its contents containing a teaching to put off lying.
Well, we do know that forgeries did take place. I just hate the thought of having to put Ephesians away in order to go spend my time reading plethora of non-canonical writings. I barely have time to digest the wisdom of the Christian teaching in Ephesians.
Maybe the Forum of the Accuracy and Innerancy of the Bible would be a better room to discuss authorship matters.
Get over yourself.
Are you so incensed that someone might dare question the reliability of your holy wisdom that you need to put words in other peoples' mouths? Please take note of the question marks I used in the post you are replying to and re-evaluate your hysteria.
I'll work on reading your posts more carefully. Thanks.
Wow! I was unaware that formal training and credentials was a requirement to ask a question on an internet forum!
I'll work on reading your posts more carefully.
Are you now going to proceed with such vigor and indignation into threads where non-geologists are currently asserting the superiority of their opinions about the facts of nature to actual practicing geologists?
If you notice, I did not put out any information. I asked questions to potentially lead the discussion. Should the discussion actually go that way perhaps I will add my own opinion and then of course I will do my best to reference my facts where appropriate.
Here is one simple fact that I hope will not be too controversial for you. Some people don't believe Paul wrote Ephesians. My question is, does the question of Paul's authorship bear upon the relevance of Ephesians as theological work?
I'll think about it.
The New Testament is very interesting. No where does it tell us exactly WHO wrote the epistle to the Hebrews. Instead it repeatedly says that the Holy Spirit said this or the Holy Spirit said that.
The overall effect is that we should get the point of what the Holy Spirit is saying.
At the moment I cannot think of another NT book which does that. I would say as with Hebrews so with Ephesians. Whoever wrote it had an awful lot of insight into the nature of the new covenant gospel.
I think for me to adopt a thought that "You know, Paul did [not] really write this what you are reading?" is a kind of slippery slope distraction the end of which I am not sure, will be helpful.
From Genesis the old serpent maybe put himself in the shape of a questioan mark and said "Did God say ... ?"
Of course Paul is not God. But if the biographical information inherent in the Ephesian letter is phony, that DOES put a huge damper of suspicion on its entire contents. There are some very important things written there in first person. Now if those are lies, that really taints the whole epistle.
Did I respond to your question here more accurately?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 01-05-2013 7:31 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 12 of 383 (686921)
01-05-2013 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
01-05-2013 7:31 AM


Re: Authenticity?
Okay. Ephesians. What a great book to read aloud. What a great book to read prayerfully. If reading Ephesians doesn't cause you to ascend in your heart to the spiritual heights, I don't know what will.
The book is written by either Paul or a ghostwriter who flows with the same spirit,namely the will of God, as Paul did.
I am going on the belief that Paul, of course, wrote this letter.
That's going to be a flat given with me here.
There is no profit motive. There is no motive at all, apart from advancing a belief in Jesus Christ, sent from God to humanity. A living eternal presence(through the Holy Spirit) Who stepped out of eternity into time. To the saints in Ephesus, to be sure, but to saints(and sinners) of all time. The audience was foreknown. Arguably, one cannot critically examine this text without openly affirming or denying the intent of this message.
Not all the churches were equally open to Paul's ministry. In Paul's two Corinthian letters, we can see him arguing, grappling, being force to vindicate his credentials, motives, methods, etc. The audience contained some rather suspicious recipients.
With the church in Ephesus think he found an audience rather wide open to hear him. This drew him out. This enabled him to speak his heart in full.
Thank God, that we have examples of BOTH in the New Testament. That is the apostle writing to a skeptical audience as in the Corinthian letters and Paul writing to a trusting audience as in Ephesians. The balance of the Bible is always marvelous.
Ephesians 1:3-10 writes:
Eph 1:3-10 ...
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. ... 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment-to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Praise and honor GOD, creator of all seen and unseen! He chose us...(or whosoever)In love.
The epistle to the Romans seems more to start from the standpoint of the need of sinners. Ephesians seems more to begin with God's need, God's good pleasure, and God's eternal purpose.
Because we are so "man centered" we often gage everything in view of remedies to our human problems. Ephesians emphasizes that before our problems, God foreknew, foreordained, pre-planned, "before the foundation of the world" .
Surely man has a lot of needs. They are legitimate needs. But what about the need of God? Has God absolutely no need? I think Ephesians is a book more focused upon the "good pleasure" of God.
The strong implication of the words " even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world " is that before God CREATED the universe, He had in His heart a desire for His people. Based then upon this desire already in His heart He THEN brought about the creation of the universe.
This is a death knell to the post modern concept that man is purely a accident - meaningless and without goal or aim in a universe, soon to die out in the cold blackness of space, having briefly been here for no reason. This is the dispairing thought of many young people.
But before God laid the foundation of the world, He thought to have SONS who share the divine life and nature as the uncreated eternal Divine Father.
"Even as He chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (vs 4,5)
A few brief observations here:
1.) Christ is a realm in which all of God's purpose takes place. Christ is the sphere in which God accomplishes His good pleasure. The meaning of the universe is intrinsically wrapped up "in Christ".
2.) The passage suggests the pre-existence of Christ before creation. Of course it echoes the prayer of Christ that His redeemed believers behold Him as He was in glory before the foundation of the world -

John 17:5 - "And now, glorify Me along with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
John 17:24 - "Father, [concerning] that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world."
3.) These ones chosen in the sphere of Christ are to be holy and without blemish.
Briefly I want to say here that two things are mentioned as holy in the Bible. Firstly God Himself ALONE is holy - "You alone are holy ..." (Rev. 15:4)
And certain things consecrated unto God for God are said to be holy - like holy angels, holy apostles and prophets, the marriage bed even is holy, etc.
Holy, I think, as it relates to God alone (Rev. 15:4) means that God is different from ALL other things in existence. He is just in a catagory of sacredness different from all other matters or things in existence. As the one who calls into being all things - [color=yellow] " God ... who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being" (Rom. 4:17) , God is just in a unique nature the Bible calls "holy" .
That He chose for some human beings to be holy must mean the He will dispense something of His life and nature into them making them sons in life. That is in the Divine family, as it is, partakers of what He is. As Peter said the believers in Christ are "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4)
This is beyond just created in the image of God. This is after being created in His image, partaking of His life and nature. Ie. Not merely are they to be spectators of the divine nature, or just worshippers of the divine nature, or just observers or admirers or witnesses to the divine nature. But they are to be PARTAKERS and PARTICIPANTS of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) .
So God must dispense Himself into them.
God must flow His being into them or a union of the uncreated life with the created life.
Of course SONS is a life relationship. These predestinated and chosen ones are not only legally adopted. They are oranically BORN. It is a matter of life.
4.) The phrase " holy and without blemish " suggests the word picture of a gem with no foreign particle embedded in it to ruin its beauty.
Much could be discussed about this. But I want to say that fallen man received a blemish in that a foreign element of the Satanic nature entered into man. Perhaps this verse 4 is more remedial. I mean God intended that no foreign element be in man. Only His own divine life and nature was to be dispensed into man.
The sin nature was a blemish as a outside foreign defect infested into human beings through Adam's disobedience.
5.) " ... according to the good pleasure of His will "
I venture to say that as the highest Being God has the highest requirement for pleasure. This will be contraversial because on one hand many do not believe that God could NEED anything.
I think it is obvious here that God can have a good pleasure either met or left un-met. It is a good pleasure which encompasses the meaning of the universe's creation. It is a good peasure related to the purpose of humans existing. If man does not arrive at the fulfillment of God's will his own purpose for creation goes unsatisfied and God's "good pleasure" He does not gratify. His will coincides with the meaning of human creation.
"Predestinating us unto sonship" even before the creation of the world.
I say Ephesians affirms that God created all things for His purpose, for His will and plan. He created all things not only by His will power. But He created to because of His will and purpose as Revelation 4:11 indicates -
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created." (Rev. 4:11)
I have quoted here that God calls things not being as being (Rom. 4:17). And His calling all things into being is His laying the foundation of the world, ie. creating the universe. Prior (as far as we can understand it) to this calling the universe into being and laying the world's foundation, He had a plan and a good pleasure to have SONS of Himself as the eternal Father.
How then can we not understand that MAN is exceedingly important in the universe. We are not accidents. However we came about we are the meaning of the universe. And Jesus Christ must be the central meaning of human beings for it is He as the sphere within which God duplicates more SONS. And He was beloved before the world was (John 17:5). And somehow this One radiated the splendid expression of God "before the foundation of the world " (John 17:24)
The prayer of Jesus in John 17 and the epistle of Paul in Ephesians certainly echo one another.
I'll continue below.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 01-05-2013 7:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 01-05-2013 4:07 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 14 of 383 (686950)
01-05-2013 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
01-05-2013 7:52 AM


Re: What does it actually say?
OK, God didn't tell me. I merely copied it from some introduction to the book somewhere.
This letter unveils a corporate entity of an aggregate group of saved people in seven aspects.
1.) They are called the Body of Christ (1:23; 4:13).
This collective then forms a Body for One living within.
2.) They are refered to as the new man (2:15), a corporate new humanity having Christ as its life and also as its Person.
3.) They are a the kingdom of God (2:19) strongly implied by the words "fellow citizens". That is citizens with rights and responsibilties.
4.) They are refered to as the household of God (also 2:19) Ie. God's folks, or God's family household.
5.) They are also the "dwelling place of God" (2:21-22) That is a living structure within which God lives locally and universally - a temple. He lives in the regenerated human spirits of the Christians -
"a dwelling place of God in spirit"
6.) They are also the Bride and the Wife of Christ (5:24-25). That is a romantic counterpart in unseperable love and devotion.
7.) Lastly they are a corporate Warrior, a corporate soldier for spiritual warfare. A warrior equiped to do battle and coordinate with Christ for the defeating of Satan, God's enemy. This is covered in (6:11-12)
So we are rather justified in saying that Ephesians is on the church in these seven aspects.
This I would say is the central track of the epistle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 01-05-2013 7:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 01-06-2013 12:43 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 18 of 383 (687060)
01-07-2013 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
01-06-2013 12:43 PM


Re: Ephesians 1 conclusion
17-the Spirit of wisdom and revelation. In my belief, the Holy Spirit can teach us.
It(GOD) can give us wisdom.
It can impart wisdom into us.
Not to say we shouldn't continue learning about other religions, philosophies and scientific conclusions on our own. I believe that having the Holy Spirit is the basic foundation which makes secular knowledge useful. Without this wisdom, we are forever searching for what we would reject in the first place.
To livin up the discussion a bit - I think the Spirit in verse 17 should be with a small s as in human spirit rather than a capital S as in Holy Spirit.
What would you say about that ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 01-06-2013 12:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-07-2013 2:59 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 24 of 383 (687112)
01-07-2013 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
01-07-2013 2:59 PM


Re: Ephesians 1 conclusion
It never hurts to use the small s. We always need to be mindful of thinking higher of ourselves than we ought!
The spirit of wisdom and revelation that God grants the saints is a human spirit that has been joined to Himself as the Holy Spirit -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Here you have a man with his human spirit.
There you have an eternal God who is the Holy Spirit.
The man is redeemed, justified in Christ's redemption. In so doing this God JOINS Himself INTO the man to be mingled with the man. The two spirits - the human spirit and the Holy Spirit become one mingled and joined spirit.
The wisdom here is really a Person. God has put the believer INTO Christ and made the Person of Christ his wisdom. Right here:
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became WISDOM to us from God ..." (1 Cor. 1:30)
God has caused this Person Christ - to become WISDOM to us from God. God giving the believers a spirit of wisdom and revelation is really God giving Himself in Christ as the Holy Spirit INTO thier innermost being.
In one sense this is God putting man into Christ - "But of Him [God] you are in Christ Jesus ....". And in another sense it is God making Christ Himself, who now lives within the saved, their WISDOM from God -
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
That as it is written, 'He who boasts , let him boast in the Lord." (1 Cor. 1:30,31)
You are not wrong. The mingled spirit of man, to the saved is the spirit of man made one spirit with the Holy Spirit. The two are joined together.
We may even say that as Christians, part of our being is God.
The translators of the Ephesian letter sometimes do not know whether to make the spirit capital S or small s.
Actually, a number of times it is the MINGLED spirit that Paul means. He means the human spirit regenerated and made one spirit with the Holy Spirit.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 27 of 383 (687241)
01-08-2013 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by purpledawn
01-07-2013 6:50 PM


Re: Walking in spirit
I don't see an exhortation to "walk in the spirit" in Ephesians. The first chapter just speaks of blessings and prayers. Paul gets into "walking in the spirit" in Galatians. If this debate is about Ephesians, I don't see the relevance of the question.
Is there any exhortation to walking in the regenerated spirit in Ephesians ? Is there any charge of walking in the Holy Spirit there?
PD I think I should be able to get you close.
A Negative Walk -
We are told how the believers ought NOT to walk -
"And you, though dead in your offenses and sins, in which you once walked, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience.
Among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." (Eph. 2:1-3)
This is a WALK that the believers should NOT be in. It is according to Satan, the Devil as the evil spirit now operating in all of the fallen worldly people. This walk has made fallen men "children of wrath" .
Paul says "ONCE you walked in this manner."
A Positive Life with a Positive Walk
Now the Christians, Paul prays, would be strengthened into another realm. This realm is within them. This realm is the realm of their human spirit joined, mingled and united with the Holy Spirit of God. Paul calls this NEW realm within them "the inner man"
"That He [the Father] would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man. That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:16,17)
Paul's prayer is that they would be energized to live in the inner man. That is that they would be strengthened to REMAIN in that realm. That is to be strengthened to ABIDE in that realm. They should not just visit that new sphere. They should be strengthened to linger there to the point of LIVING and certainly WALKING step by step in the realm.
Contrasting spirits for contrasting walks -
The first negative passage concerned TERMINATING the old way to walk - that is according to the Satanic spirit in the atmosphere operating spiritually in sons of disobedience. That walk only incurs God's wrath to be upon transgressors.
The second passage is a life and walk according to the Holy Spirit within the regenerated human spirit. This results in Jesus Christ making His home in our hearts bu faith. Ie. Jesus more and more saturating and permeating man's personality, man's soul.
No Longer WALK as the Gentiles
Ephesians 4:17-24 are all about terminating the old walk and growing into the new walk.
"This therefore I say and testify in the Lord, that you no longer WALK as the Gentiles also WALK in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart ..." (4:17,18a)
Terminate the old walk. It is a walk and a living ALIENATED from the life of God . But now that the believers have become indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, by Jesus, they are no longer "alienated from the life of God"
Christ as the Divine Life of God has been dispensed into them. And they need to be strengthened into that realm. That is empowered into the inner man so that they may have a new walk in oneness with the living and available Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 7:56 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 29 of 383 (687253)
01-08-2013 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
01-07-2013 12:38 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
That would depend on what "walking in the Spirit" means.
Ringo, I feel to give you fair warning. For a fella who says he wants God to leave him alone, Ephesians may not be to your liking.
WALK - means to live.
WALK by the Spirit means to live by the Spirit. Walk by the Spirit entails not ACTING so much as REACTING. One is under the enfluence of God's Spirit and spontaneously is moved to react according to the enfluence of the Holy Spirit.
But Who is the Holy Spirit ?
But What is the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit is definitely the AVAILABLE Jesus Christ.
If Christ died, was buried, and dissolved into the dust as the majority of other humans do, He is not available. Regardless of how we may admire such a Christ, if He is dead and gone then ... He ... is ... not ... available to ANYONE.
The Gospel in the New Testament is the good news that this wonderful Person Jesus Christ is risen, alive, and in His own supernatural way is indeed AVAILABLE to me and in every whit to you too.
The Holy Spirit is the God and Christ that can REACH us.
The Holy Spirit is the Triune God Who can merge with us, blend with us, live within us, and BE lived by us in a union of our being with His.
First Corinthians 15:45 - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"
Jesus Christ is called "the last Adam" . In His actual and historical resurrection from the dead He also transfigured Himself into a form as life giving Spirit .
LIFE GIVING means - God Giving.
LIFE GIVING means - Giving CHRIST to people to be their life.
LIFE GIVING means - Christ Giving to be our life.
Life giving Spirit means the AVAILABLE resurrected Jesus became in a form in which He can GIVE HIMSELF to man to compound with man that man may live a life in union and mingling with Jesus Christ.
Paul pioneered in this way of living. He found the way and he wrote letters for the believers in Christ to also find the way.
Of course Peter and John also pioneered the way and wrote to help others in the way.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 01-07-2013 12:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 11:57 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 30 of 383 (687277)
01-09-2013 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by purpledawn
01-07-2013 6:50 PM


Re: Making Alive in ch. 1
I don't think the author is saying that "making one alive in Christ" forces one to be willing and able to do good deeds. He's summarizing Paul's argument concerning adoption into God's chosen family.
Ephesians takes unbelievers from the place of being "alienated from the life of God" (4:18) to being partakers of "sonship" (1:5), ie. sharing the begetting Father's divine, uncreated and eternal life.
Ephesians does cover the making of fallen sinners ALIVE with a new life, the divine life in Christ FOR a walking and living in that life. This fact should not be missed.
1.) The very term SONSHIP to which God has predestinated the believers strongly implies the life and position of one who SHARES the same life as the begetting Father.
So before the creation of the world, ie. before laying "the foundation of the world" the Father sought not only to CREATE some creatures with their own life but BEGET some sons who in addition to their created life ALSO partake of the Father's eternal life.
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ... before Him in love, predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ to Himself [the Father's self] " (1:4a,5a)
We arrive in the world created.
We need to receive Jesus Christ to be begotten and come into the predestined and foreordained will of the Father to have His SONS. This proves that we indeed need to be "made alive" in Christ.
2.) The begetting Father gives to the inward being of the redeemed and forgiven ones the Person of the Holy Spirit. This Spirit is the pledge, the guarantee, the down payment if you will, and the foretaste of the full taste to come.
" ... having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance ..." (v13)
The giving of the Holy Spirit is also the making alive. It is the COMPOUNDING of one supernatural Person into the being of a natural created person. It is God dispensing Himself into the forgiven believer. This addition of God to our being is definitely God making us alive.
It is not God making us alive with the NATURAL Life. It is God making us alive with the uncreated and supernatural divine life. God can insert Himself into our created spirit.
Then the believer has as a PLEDGE and as a proof of more to come, of the glorious inheritance of inheriting God Himself in full as those obtaining the life and position as SONS of God - ie. "sonship".
The words in verse 14 - "Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ..." do not mean that the sinner is not already REDEEMED. She surely is already redeemed by the blood of Christ. This is the awaiting of the TRANSFIGURATION of the physical body. This is the awaiting the future resurrection and glorification of the body to a body conformed to the one possessed by Jesus Christ in Heaven right now.
This is good enough from chapter one. Both passages underscore that the concept of God giving divine life to believers in Jesus is definitely indicated in chapter one, let alone in the other chapters.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by purpledawn, posted 01-07-2013 6:50 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 01-09-2013 7:41 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 33 of 383 (687284)
01-09-2013 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
01-09-2013 7:41 AM


Re: Making Alive in ch. 1
Now that I've looked up the meaning and find that exhortation is inciting by argument or advice, I agree and had already stated in Message 19 that the author was saying that believers shouldn't fall back to old bad behavior. That was Paul's point in Galatians 5. They were to conduct their lives by thinking of others and not just their own needs. Galatians 5:16-25
Maybe I do not understand you well. Maybe I am not being fair.
But we have to be careful, or at least I as a Christian, have to be careful not to try to pour new wine into old wineskins.
Walk by the Spirit is nothing like "Turn over a new leaf". It is nothing like Self correction and self reform.
Walk by the Spirit is not self cultivation. It is not a humanistic self improvement. And it is not like the Chinese Confucius teaching of developing the "bright virtue" within.
I am concerned that one could read into this unique phrase of walking by the Spirit to mean something vaguely akin to making a new year's resolution or deciding to buckle down and improve one's own behavior.
This kind of understanding of the NT phrase to walk by the Spirit is a naturalistic humanist attitude which actually hinders rather than helps people to live the Christian life.
A good and kind Unitarian does not walk by the Spirit in this sense.
A ethical Buddhist or even a morally astute Atheist does not "walk by the Spirit".
I may self improve myself, and perhaps drop some bad habits. In so doing and not going along with some bad habits in the past that is not necessarily walking by the Spirit of Christ or by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.
The walk by the Spirit can only involve a living Lord Jesus. Any decision to merely think "What Would Jesus Do?" and then act like that is probably not walking in the Spirit.
We do not like to surrender this phrase for a common usage of the Humanist or Unitarian who believes that Jesus has left a good teaching but as Himself not available.
To walk by the Spirit involves surrendering up one's mind, emotion, will, and conscience more and more, chamber by chamber to the direction of a living and present Christ who lives in union with the Christian.
Perhaps I misunderstand you. But in Galatians that you mentioned, Pauls says " If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 3:26)
The one who believes into Christ as his Lord and Savior is the one who begins, via the new birth, to LIVE by the Spirit. Only that one can WALK by the Spirit.
If we have confessed that we are sinners and need the blood of Jesus for our redemption before God, we can receive Christ and commence to LIVE by the Spirit. Now what about our daily life?
Should we turn over a new leaf and try to do better ? We could have tried to do that as an Agnostic. Self improvement, self cultivation is the right of any human being. Any Atheist is entitled to give self improvement a go and achieve perhaps some measure of success she is happy with.
If we believers in Christ live by the Spirit, let us also step by step learn to WALK by that Spirit.
You will detect in my response some caution about surrendering up the unique New Testament exhortation to walk by the Spirit to mean a religious or humanistic desire to give a fresh go at being a good person by one's own natural energies.
The walking and living in the Holy Spirit in Ephesians has as its goal the building up of the Body of Christ. It is not to make the world a better place for us all to live. The walk of the individual indwelling is unto the building up of the corporate indwelling.
I said, the walk from the individual indwelling is unto, in view of, design to result in the building up of the aggregate and corporate indwelling for God's eternal purpose of having -
" .. a dwelling place of God in spirit" . A living temple of God as God's habitation within a group of people on the earth.
Now a BYPRODUCT of God coming to earth in a collective corporate temple is certainly an improvement of the planet. But His direct goal is to build up this corporate temple of God within humanity.
[color=yellow] ... fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy templee in the Lord. In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:19c-22)
We come to Christ to receive Himself as life in His resurrected form - "I am the resurrection and the life". We grow in Him to walk in Him. The two really work together. We walk in Him for the eternal purpose of God dispensing Himself into a group of people for the building of His living temple on the earth - the habitation of God in spirit.
The same thing is covered in the operation in each member causing the growth of the Body in another chapter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 01-09-2013 7:41 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 01-10-2013 9:05 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 01-10-2013 9:07 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 36 of 383 (687313)
01-09-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
01-09-2013 7:56 AM


Re: Ephesus Unplugged
I can accept this timeless truth as being applicable in 2013 as surely as it was applicable to the church in Ephesus.
Absolutely.
And I might add that the early Christians were not naive. Many of them knew when they held solid gold in their hands in terms of a letter from an apostle of Jesus.
They circulated these letters around. That contributed to the church fathers discovering the canonicity of shared and circulated writings - which were genuine and apostolic. They sifted through and discovered, not determined, but discovered which were inspired and authoritative.
Paul's desire was that his letter to one church would be read by another also -
"And when this letter is read among you, cause that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also, and that you also read the one from Laodicea." (Col. 4:16)
This desire of Paul, I feel, is only his reflection of the desire of God, of the Holy Spirit -
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" is repeated seven times after each of seven letters to individual local churches. All the churches were to benefit from what the Christ said to each one local church.
What was in Paul's heart was the same. There is something of the same thing which he taught in all the churches. Certain local details may differ. But basic truth is for ALL the churches to benefit from.
" Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, ... who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church." ( 1 Cor. 4:17a,c)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 7:56 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Richh, posted 02-11-2013 6:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 38 of 383 (687321)
01-09-2013 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
01-09-2013 11:57 AM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
You're making the fundamental mistake that fundamentalists always make. You're turning the messenger into a cult hero and ignoring the message.
It is the other way around. It is the other way around.
No other teacher in the world should have ever been so exalted to be the centrality of the teaching as Jesus is to His message.
Now, Mohammed never claimed to be God.
Confucius never claimed to be God.
Buddha never claimed to be God and I don't think believed in God.
Zoraster did not claim to be God.
Baha'u'llah did not claim to be God.
Joseph Smith did not claim to be God.
Sun Myoung Moon did not claim to be God.
Elijah Mohammed did not claim to be God.
Mary Baker Eddy did not claim to be God.
Farrakan did not.
Herbert Armstrong did not.
Jesus Christ claimed to be God. The prophets predicted the coming of God as a Man. (Isaiah 9:6)
So you spread out your blanket erroneously to cover a Unique Teacher.
There's a certain symbolic value in the King sending his own son as his messenger. It shows that the message is important to the King and that he is willing to take certain risks, make certain sacrifices to have it delivered.
This concept now borders Arianism - that is that Jesus is not God incarnate but a great Messenger or Angel. This is the thought of the modern day Jehovah's Witnesses. This is the thought of the modern day "The Way International".
This is why the ancient brothers had to FIGHT to maintain that Christ was God incarnated and we got troublesome words like Trinity. They did so justifiably because the New Testament teaches that the One sent is God Himself incarnate as a man.
God sent God. God was sent by God. God came with God.
But this is also important. God sent God into man to make man God. It was not a one way trip. It is a round trip. As Athanasius wrote - God became a man so that man might become God.
God became man so that the communicable attributes of God might be secured in man - God becomes man so as to make man God in life and nature but not in the Godhead.
However, there is no operational significance in who the messenger is. The message is the same even if it is delivered by an expendable flunky.
Explicitely not true. Far from the truth when it comes to the New Testament. Far, far from the truth.
Jesus made it EMPHATIC that He was the message. Here is one place where He went way out of His way to make Himself the essence of the message from God -
" Jesus therefore said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within yourselves.
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day.
For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him.
As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me also shall live because of Me." (John 6:53-57)
This is not a teaching of Catholic transubstantiation. This is not me showing that Jesus taught the bread and wine of the Lord's Table becomes His flesh and blood in my mouth.
But this is the emphatic teaching that a man must accept the incarnation of God having become a man in Jesus Christ. Eat His flesh and drink His blood. For it is the reality, the truth of God that God has become a man.
And this is also why the Bible has made so much a matter of the BLOOD of Jesus. You have to be saved under the spilt blood of Jesus. The blood is the very life. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgivenesss.
God has become a human life and died for us. And the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from all sin.
It doesn't matter if the messenger dies, as long as the message gets through. Unfortunately, it often doesn't if you deify the messenger.
You need mercy that the scales would fall from the eyes of your heart.
When Jesus said that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, many of the disciples could not take it. They began to leave Jesus.
" Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this, said, This word is hard, who can hear it?"
Jesus never apologized. He told the twelve - "Does this stumble you? Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? "
What are the skeptical going to do when they finally see the Man Jesus seated on the throne of God with absolute universal authority?
What are you going to do then Ringo?
After some of the discples withdrew, Peter confessed that they had nowhere to go:
"From that time many of His disciples went bacl to what [they left] behind and no longer walked with Him.
Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Do you also want to go away?
Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." (6:66-69)
BUT HERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. ACKTUNG!
( I know, "get over yourself jaywill" )
Jesus does explain His words after the stumbled ones depart.
"It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (v.63)
It is the Spirit that gives divine life.
It is the Spirit that dispenses divine life into forgiven sinners.
To EAT Him is really to fully accept His words.
Can anyone tell me what the last Adam became ?
Anyone?
What now did the last Adam, Christ, become ?
" ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
If you open your whole being to His words you take Him in with His words. The Christ, in resurrection, became the life giving Spirit. You cannot see Him now. But He is available in the Holy Spirit and in His very words.
So I would say that "walking in the spirit" has more to do with the spirit of the message than the spirit of the messenger.
I'll reply to this in another post.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 1:23 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 39 of 383 (687322)
01-09-2013 1:10 PM


So I would say that "walking in the spirit" has more to do with the spirit of the message than the spirit of the messenger.
Find me the equivalent of this teaching among any spiritual teachers of the worlds religion. Quote to us an equivalent pronouncement:
" Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Jesus, WITH His Father, will come to His lover and the Divine WE of He and His Father will make an abode with His lover.
The next post from Ringo, I expect him to produce a equivalent promise from another teacher of a world religion.
Where did a teacher say that he and his Father God would come to live in his disciple as an abode ?

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 42 of 383 (687331)
01-09-2013 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
01-09-2013 1:23 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
Even if the King carries his own message, the message is still more important than the messenger.
No. If you do not receive the king's authority you do not receive the king's message.
Man's rejection of Christ according to His words is the rejection of God's authority and thus the rejection of God.
Now, By all means - where in the book of Ephesians can we see such a teaching ?
First of all we see it in Christ's words. Then we see it in the words of the apostles.
1.) Christ's words -
"For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (John 5:22,23)
There is no dishonoring the Son as the delegated authority as Ringo imagines while honoring the Father who sent the Son.
2.) God's eternal purpose is to head up all things under the Son -
"He [the Father] caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavens, Far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but in that which is to come.
And He subjected all things under His [Christ's] feet and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all." (See Eph. 1:20-21)
Don't attempt to slip a little lie in here and then shrug and say "Back to the Topic." You're wrong.
Paul says in Ephesians that you're wrong. And the Apostle John says the same thing -
" If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, because this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son. He who believes into the Son of God has the testimony in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar because he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified concerning His Son.
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12,13)
It is no wonder that in Ephesians that Paul says the TRUTH [the reality] is in Jesus -
" If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus" (Eph. 4:21)
Does it seem like just idle words to you Ringo?
They are not just idle words.
jaywill writes:
Find me the equivalent of this teaching among any spiritual teachers of the worlds religion.
So other messengers didn't put themselves above the message? Good for them.
Your claim that Jesus did put himself above the message isn't really the topic here.
Don't try to slip in a gross error of understanding of the Bible and hide behind "getting back to the topic." The universal exaltation of Christ as the Head over all things to the church is of the topic of Ephesians. Have you Read It ?
God has made Christ the Head over all things to the church. Holding to the Person of Christ is holding to the truth -
"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ ..." (4:15)
Christ as the Head over all things in this age and in the age to come and in the ages to come is crucial teaching in Ephesians. You err in negating that with talk about exalting the messenger above the message.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 1:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-10-2013 12:09 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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