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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 383 (686990)
01-06-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
01-06-2013 8:55 AM


Re: What does it actually say?
There are different ways to do things. One can give money begrudgingly, for example. One can also cheerfully give money. One can bitch and moan about taking out the garbage or one can willingly and cheerfully take out not only their own garbage but that of the next door neighbor.
Ephesians may well be an inter office memo, as you suggest, but it is addressed to the employees of that office.
Those employees are currently alive,in my opinion.
Also note that according to Wikipedia "The earliest and best known manuscripts omit the words "in Ephesus", rendering the phrase simply as "to the saints ... the faithful in Christ Jesus" (NIV alternative translation).".
I agree that we are called to do works. I maintain, and can show support for my belief in Ephesians, that we are to walk in the Spirit as we do our good works or else we are wasting our time.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 383 (686993)
01-06-2013 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jaywill
01-05-2013 9:29 PM


Ephesians 1 conclusion
Lets see...where was I? Oh yes...Ephesians 1:15
Ephesians 1:15-23 writes:
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. NIV
17-the Spirit of wisdom and revelation. In my belief, the Holy Spirit can teach us.
It(GOD) can give us wisdom.
It can impart wisdom into us.
Not to say we shouldn't continue learning about other religions, philosophies and scientific conclusions on our own. I believe that having the Holy Spirit is the basic foundation which makes secular knowledge useful. Without this wisdom, we are forever searching for what we would reject in the first place.
Edited by Phat, : fixed link

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 18 of 383 (687060)
01-07-2013 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
01-06-2013 12:43 PM


Re: Ephesians 1 conclusion
17-the Spirit of wisdom and revelation. In my belief, the Holy Spirit can teach us.
It(GOD) can give us wisdom.
It can impart wisdom into us.
Not to say we shouldn't continue learning about other religions, philosophies and scientific conclusions on our own. I believe that having the Holy Spirit is the basic foundation which makes secular knowledge useful. Without this wisdom, we are forever searching for what we would reject in the first place.
To livin up the discussion a bit - I think the Spirit in verse 17 should be with a small s as in human spirit rather than a capital S as in Holy Spirit.
What would you say about that ?

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 19 of 383 (687067)
01-07-2013 11:41 AM


Pauline Collection Cover Letter
Jlicher and Goodspeed suggested that Ephesians may have served as an introduction to the collection of Pauline letters.
Some earlier manuscripts do not have the phrase in Ephesus in them, which is why some scholars believe it to be a circular letter and not one written specifically to the Church at Ephesus. (as has been mentioned earlier)
Per Goodspeed in An Introduction to the New Testament, The Epistle to the Ephesians:
Ephesians is a great rhapsody on the worth of the Christian salvation. Like Hebrews it belongs to an age when men needed to reflect on the worth of their faith. The situation lying back of it is twofold: the sects are beginning to appear, and the Pauline letters have been discovered and collected. To introduce this collection to Christians everywhere, to remind apathetic Christians of the great values of their faith, and to check the rising tide of sect and schism Ephesians is written.
As I understand it, pseudography was not a problem in ancient times unless one did so to deceive for some purpose. I don’t see Ephesians as a document to deceive, but to give readers an idea of what to expect when they read the letters of Paul.
Even though the situations addressed by Paul to specific churches had since passed by the time Ephesians is considered to be written by some scholars, that doesn't negate the basics of Paul’s life lessons.
Second-generation Christianity needed to be reminded of the great religious values it had inherited, as the Revelation and Hebrews show. Ephesians opens with a jubilant summary of Pauline thought, 1:3-14. The writer sets forth the supreme worth of Christianity, which his contemporaries were in danger of forgetting, 1:15-23. The Christian experience is nothing less than a new life through the mercy of God, 2:1-10. The death of Christ has opened to the Greeks a way to God, 2:11-22.
Paul in his writings has declared the Greeks' full rights in Christianity, 3:1-13, as they will see when they read his letters.
Basically, keep moving forward, treat others well, and don’t fall back to old bad behavior.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 383 (687076)
01-07-2013 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
01-06-2013 12:06 PM


Re: What does it actually say?
Phat writes:
One can give money begrudgingly, for example. One can also cheerfully give money.
The example of the lady with her two mites suggests that "begrudgingly" has as much to do with how much you hold back as it does with "attitude".
Phat writes:
One can bitch and moan about taking out the garbage or one can willingly and cheerfully take out not only their own garbage but that of the next door neighbor.
But isn't it better to bitch and moan as you take out your garbage (and your neighbour's garbage) than to let it pile up in the house?
Phat writes:
I maintain, and can show support for my belief in Ephesians, that we are to walk in the Spirit as we do our good works or else we are wasting our time.
That would depend on what "walking in the Spirit" means.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 383 (687095)
01-07-2013 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jaywill
01-07-2013 10:24 AM


Re: Ephesians 1 conclusion
jaywill writes:
To livin up the discussion a bit - I think the Spirit in verse 17 should be with a small s as in human spirit rather than a capital S as in Holy Spirit.
What would you say about that ?
It never hurts to use the small s. We always need to be mindful of thinking higher of ourselves than we ought!
Ringo writes:
But isn't it better to bitch and moan as you take out your garbage (and your neighbour's garbage) than to let it pile up in the house?
I suppose reality suggests as much. In which case it is better to give begrudgingly than not at all....this means that good works are a command rather than a request I suppose....the Spirit(Big S) goes easy on me...maybe He is tougher on you, Ringo.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 383 (687096)
01-07-2013 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by purpledawn
01-07-2013 11:41 AM


Re: Pauline Collection Cover Letter
PD writes:
I don’t see Ephesians as a document to deceive, but to give readers an idea of what to expect when they read the letters of Paul.
Even though the situations addressed by Paul to specific churches had since passed by the time Ephesians is considered to be written by some scholars, that doesn't negate the basics of Paul’s life lessons.
Which again gets back to the question. Is an exhortation to "walk in the Spirit" a suggestion or a command? I always believed that the Lord loves a cheerful ( and willing) giver. By that, I mean that I wont force myself to give or serve...I will but force myself to submit to the Holy Spirit.
PD writes:
Basically, keep moving forward, treat others well, and don’t fall back to old bad behavior.
so my question is this: Do I do good works as a discipline to attain spiritual maturity or does Spiritual Indwelling(also maturity) cause me to do good works?
I tend to believe that trusting and allowing Gods Spirit to indwell me allows me to cheerfully and willingly do good works.
I don't like the idea that I am commanded to do good works as a condition of my existence.
Anyway lets read Chapter 2.
NIV writes:
Eph 2:1-6--As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved.
In other words, by Him making me alive in Christ, I am willing and able to do good works. Comments?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 383 (687101)
01-07-2013 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
01-07-2013 3:09 PM


Re: Pauline Collection Cover Letter
In other words, by Him making me alive in Christ, I am willing and able to do good works.
What does the evidence show?
Do you do the works?
Edited by jar, : fix quotebox

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 24 of 383 (687112)
01-07-2013 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
01-07-2013 2:59 PM


Re: Ephesians 1 conclusion
It never hurts to use the small s. We always need to be mindful of thinking higher of ourselves than we ought!
The spirit of wisdom and revelation that God grants the saints is a human spirit that has been joined to Himself as the Holy Spirit -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Here you have a man with his human spirit.
There you have an eternal God who is the Holy Spirit.
The man is redeemed, justified in Christ's redemption. In so doing this God JOINS Himself INTO the man to be mingled with the man. The two spirits - the human spirit and the Holy Spirit become one mingled and joined spirit.
The wisdom here is really a Person. God has put the believer INTO Christ and made the Person of Christ his wisdom. Right here:
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became WISDOM to us from God ..." (1 Cor. 1:30)
God has caused this Person Christ - to become WISDOM to us from God. God giving the believers a spirit of wisdom and revelation is really God giving Himself in Christ as the Holy Spirit INTO thier innermost being.
In one sense this is God putting man into Christ - "But of Him [God] you are in Christ Jesus ....". And in another sense it is God making Christ Himself, who now lives within the saved, their WISDOM from God -
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
That as it is written, 'He who boasts , let him boast in the Lord." (1 Cor. 1:30,31)
You are not wrong. The mingled spirit of man, to the saved is the spirit of man made one spirit with the Holy Spirit. The two are joined together.
We may even say that as Christians, part of our being is God.
The translators of the Ephesian letter sometimes do not know whether to make the spirit capital S or small s.
Actually, a number of times it is the MINGLED spirit that Paul means. He means the human spirit regenerated and made one spirit with the Holy Spirit.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 25 of 383 (687123)
01-07-2013 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
01-07-2013 3:09 PM


Re: Pauline Collection Cover Letter
quote:
Which again gets back to the question. Is an exhortation to "walk in the Spirit" a suggestion or a command? I always believed that the Lord loves a cheerful ( and willing) giver. By that, I mean that I wont force myself to give or serve...I will but force myself to submit to the Holy Spirit.
I don't see an exhortation to "walk in the spirit" in Ephesians. The first chapter just speaks of blessings and prayers. Paul gets into "walking in the spirit" in Galatians. If this debate is about Ephesians, I don't see the relevance of the question.
quote:
so my question is this: Do I do good works as a discipline to attain spiritual maturity or does Spiritual Indwelling(also maturity) cause me to do good works?
I tend to believe that trusting and allowing Gods Spirit to indwell me allows me to cheerfully and willingly do good works.
I don't like the idea that I am commanded to do good works as a condition of my existence.
Again, I don't see the relevance of the question given what is written. I don't think Ephesians can help you. Paul's letter contain his arguments and reasoning.
quote:
In other words, by Him making me alive in Christ, I am willing and able to do good works. Comments?
Verses 8-10 probably answer your question. I don't think it deals with ones willingness.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I don't think the author is saying that "making one alive in Christ" forces one to be willing and able to do good deeds. He's summarizing Paul's argument concerning adoption into God's chosen family.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 383 (687233)
01-08-2013 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
01-07-2013 3:57 PM


Work It, Girl
jar writes:
What does the evidence show?
Do you do the works?
Yes, I have been doing much better in the "take out the neighbors trash" dept. Of course it is easy for me to help the young gangstas...I like being around them anyway...but I have also been helping older people like yourself...cheerfully and willingly.
I can always improve yet further, however.
Where were we?
NIV writes:
Ephesians2:6-10--6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
God raised us up. Is this a copout, jar? Or is it a gift of Grace? We were created to do good works. There is your favorite word..do. We were created to do good works. God wont do them for us but will enable us to do them in communion with His Spirit within.
(from New International Version)
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 27 of 383 (687241)
01-08-2013 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by purpledawn
01-07-2013 6:50 PM


Re: Walking in spirit
I don't see an exhortation to "walk in the spirit" in Ephesians. The first chapter just speaks of blessings and prayers. Paul gets into "walking in the spirit" in Galatians. If this debate is about Ephesians, I don't see the relevance of the question.
Is there any exhortation to walking in the regenerated spirit in Ephesians ? Is there any charge of walking in the Holy Spirit there?
PD I think I should be able to get you close.
A Negative Walk -
We are told how the believers ought NOT to walk -
"And you, though dead in your offenses and sins, in which you once walked, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience.
Among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." (Eph. 2:1-3)
This is a WALK that the believers should NOT be in. It is according to Satan, the Devil as the evil spirit now operating in all of the fallen worldly people. This walk has made fallen men "children of wrath" .
Paul says "ONCE you walked in this manner."
A Positive Life with a Positive Walk
Now the Christians, Paul prays, would be strengthened into another realm. This realm is within them. This realm is the realm of their human spirit joined, mingled and united with the Holy Spirit of God. Paul calls this NEW realm within them "the inner man"
"That He [the Father] would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man. That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:16,17)
Paul's prayer is that they would be energized to live in the inner man. That is that they would be strengthened to REMAIN in that realm. That is to be strengthened to ABIDE in that realm. They should not just visit that new sphere. They should be strengthened to linger there to the point of LIVING and certainly WALKING step by step in the realm.
Contrasting spirits for contrasting walks -
The first negative passage concerned TERMINATING the old way to walk - that is according to the Satanic spirit in the atmosphere operating spiritually in sons of disobedience. That walk only incurs God's wrath to be upon transgressors.
The second passage is a life and walk according to the Holy Spirit within the regenerated human spirit. This results in Jesus Christ making His home in our hearts bu faith. Ie. Jesus more and more saturating and permeating man's personality, man's soul.
No Longer WALK as the Gentiles
Ephesians 4:17-24 are all about terminating the old walk and growing into the new walk.
"This therefore I say and testify in the Lord, that you no longer WALK as the Gentiles also WALK in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart ..." (4:17,18a)
Terminate the old walk. It is a walk and a living ALIENATED from the life of God . But now that the believers have become indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, by Jesus, they are no longer "alienated from the life of God"
Christ as the Divine Life of God has been dispensed into them. And they need to be strengthened into that realm. That is empowered into the inner man so that they may have a new walk in oneness with the living and available Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Richh
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 28 of 383 (687248)
01-08-2013 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by purpledawn
01-07-2013 11:41 AM


Re: Pauline Collection Cover Letter
As I understand it, pseudography was not a problem in ancient times unless one did so to deceive for some purpose. I don’t see Ephesians as a document to deceive, but to give readers an idea of what to expect when they read the letters of Paul.
There is a note in Henry Alford's New Testament for English Readers in the section on 'Its Authorship':
5. As we advance to the following centuries, the reception of the authorship of St. Paul is universal. In fact, we may safely say that this authorship was never called into question till very recent times.
Donald Guthrie mentions in his New Testament Introduction:
...this epistle had been regarded as a genuine epsitle of Paul until nineteenth-century criticism attacked it...
Alford's introduction to the book also addressed all the questions I had regarding the destination of the epistle. He concludes the section on 'For what readers, etc." with:
20. I infer then, in accordance with the prevalent belief of the Church in all ages, that the Epistle was VERITABLEY ADDRESSED TO THE SAINTS IN EPHESUS, and TO NO OTHER CHURCH.
(His 'caps')
I obviously do no attempt to list all the details of his argument, but from this I infer a stong case can be made for Pauline authorship and Ephesus as the destination. Personally I am satisfied with these two conclusions.
P.S. The '20' above means that that is the 20th point on that topic.
Edited by Richh, : Edits, etc.
Edited by Richh, : Added an intiial quote

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 29 of 383 (687253)
01-08-2013 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
01-07-2013 12:38 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
That would depend on what "walking in the Spirit" means.
Ringo, I feel to give you fair warning. For a fella who says he wants God to leave him alone, Ephesians may not be to your liking.
WALK - means to live.
WALK by the Spirit means to live by the Spirit. Walk by the Spirit entails not ACTING so much as REACTING. One is under the enfluence of God's Spirit and spontaneously is moved to react according to the enfluence of the Holy Spirit.
But Who is the Holy Spirit ?
But What is the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit is definitely the AVAILABLE Jesus Christ.
If Christ died, was buried, and dissolved into the dust as the majority of other humans do, He is not available. Regardless of how we may admire such a Christ, if He is dead and gone then ... He ... is ... not ... available to ANYONE.
The Gospel in the New Testament is the good news that this wonderful Person Jesus Christ is risen, alive, and in His own supernatural way is indeed AVAILABLE to me and in every whit to you too.
The Holy Spirit is the God and Christ that can REACH us.
The Holy Spirit is the Triune God Who can merge with us, blend with us, live within us, and BE lived by us in a union of our being with His.
First Corinthians 15:45 - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"
Jesus Christ is called "the last Adam" . In His actual and historical resurrection from the dead He also transfigured Himself into a form as life giving Spirit .
LIFE GIVING means - God Giving.
LIFE GIVING means - Giving CHRIST to people to be their life.
LIFE GIVING means - Christ Giving to be our life.
Life giving Spirit means the AVAILABLE resurrected Jesus became in a form in which He can GIVE HIMSELF to man to compound with man that man may live a life in union and mingling with Jesus Christ.
Paul pioneered in this way of living. He found the way and he wrote letters for the believers in Christ to also find the way.
Of course Peter and John also pioneered the way and wrote to help others in the way.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 30 of 383 (687277)
01-09-2013 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by purpledawn
01-07-2013 6:50 PM


Re: Making Alive in ch. 1
I don't think the author is saying that "making one alive in Christ" forces one to be willing and able to do good deeds. He's summarizing Paul's argument concerning adoption into God's chosen family.
Ephesians takes unbelievers from the place of being "alienated from the life of God" (4:18) to being partakers of "sonship" (1:5), ie. sharing the begetting Father's divine, uncreated and eternal life.
Ephesians does cover the making of fallen sinners ALIVE with a new life, the divine life in Christ FOR a walking and living in that life. This fact should not be missed.
1.) The very term SONSHIP to which God has predestinated the believers strongly implies the life and position of one who SHARES the same life as the begetting Father.
So before the creation of the world, ie. before laying "the foundation of the world" the Father sought not only to CREATE some creatures with their own life but BEGET some sons who in addition to their created life ALSO partake of the Father's eternal life.
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ... before Him in love, predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ to Himself [the Father's self] " (1:4a,5a)
We arrive in the world created.
We need to receive Jesus Christ to be begotten and come into the predestined and foreordained will of the Father to have His SONS. This proves that we indeed need to be "made alive" in Christ.
2.) The begetting Father gives to the inward being of the redeemed and forgiven ones the Person of the Holy Spirit. This Spirit is the pledge, the guarantee, the down payment if you will, and the foretaste of the full taste to come.
" ... having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance ..." (v13)
The giving of the Holy Spirit is also the making alive. It is the COMPOUNDING of one supernatural Person into the being of a natural created person. It is God dispensing Himself into the forgiven believer. This addition of God to our being is definitely God making us alive.
It is not God making us alive with the NATURAL Life. It is God making us alive with the uncreated and supernatural divine life. God can insert Himself into our created spirit.
Then the believer has as a PLEDGE and as a proof of more to come, of the glorious inheritance of inheriting God Himself in full as those obtaining the life and position as SONS of God - ie. "sonship".
The words in verse 14 - "Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ..." do not mean that the sinner is not already REDEEMED. She surely is already redeemed by the blood of Christ. This is the awaiting of the TRANSFIGURATION of the physical body. This is the awaiting the future resurrection and glorification of the body to a body conformed to the one possessed by Jesus Christ in Heaven right now.
This is good enough from chapter one. Both passages underscore that the concept of God giving divine life to believers in Jesus is definitely indicated in chapter one, let alone in the other chapters.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by purpledawn, posted 01-07-2013 6:50 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 01-09-2013 7:41 AM jaywill has replied

  
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