Is God good?

You're riding this like you think you have some hydrogen bomb against the Bible.I think your problem of evil goes to indirectly prove that God must exist.The objection of evil has to be more than a difference of opinion.Your evil must be a real feature of the world.Paradoxically evil demonstrates God's existence. Evil is a departure from the way things should be.You would not know what crooked is unless you knew what straight is.God must exist first to define what good is. Then the existence of evil can be as a departure from what God is.I don't think objective moral values exist if God does not exist.
If you can point to REAL evil then objective moral values must really exist. They cannot be simply chemical reactions in the grey matter of the brain. If real objective moral values exist by which you can detect real evil as a departure from what ought to be, thenI think this proves that God as the greatest definer of good, must exist. I may have borrowed those kind of creedal like formulas. I don't make too much of creedal like statements.They can be helpful. But they do not have the same weight to me as the inspired word of the Bible. El Shaddai - which is usually often translated "Almighty God" also is rendered "All-sufficient".When I spoke of a kind of "Gotcha!" way, I mean that it is not too hard to take, say, ONE aspect of God and so drive it as if there is no OTHER aspects or characteristics of God.I have gone to lengths to explain that man can limit God, at least temporarily.God NEEDS man's cooperation. Man can hinder this Almighty and All-sufficient God, at least temporarily.I would not drive the Almightiness of God to the point that it negates that creatures can stand against and frustrate the will of God, at least temporarily.If by my saying this you claim a point that "Well then, God is NOT all powerful" I will agree with you in some sense.Actually this aspect of human beings being able to limit God, I think, adds to the status of man. It makes man, in some sense. NEEDED by God. I believe in the God Who created a creater man, who He then prescribed that such a creature could put limits on God, at least temporarily.The very incarnation of God as a Man - Jesus Christ, testifies to the fact that God needs man.I am not a Moslem. I believe that in Christ, God could flow through man to the uttermost for the accomplishing of His will. Well, as I said, apparently this evil will be vanquished by God.God seems to have allowed all the evil to be collected in one vast resevoir - Satan. Under this personified repository for all the evil, is included Satan's evil angels, the demons, and the rebellious humans. All of these have joined in the opposition.But the opposition party will be totally vanquished. The whole nemesis and followers will go down like the Titanic.Now this may take God some time to do. But it is as good as done.You make a very big deal of the existence of evil. But I must come back to Revelation 21 and 22 as the climax of God's operation.In this consummation evil is vanquished. Sin and death are eradicated from the new heaven and new earth. "For I am now creating new heavens and a new earth, and the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come up in the heart. But rejoice and exult forever, in what I create, For I am now creating Jerusalem as an exultation and her people as a rejoicing ... there will no longer be heard in her the voice of weeping and the voice of crying." (See Isaiah 65:17-19) Isaiah ends his prophecy this way - "They they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:24) The evil men are all vanquished. Satan is casted into the lake of fire with his final false prophet and final Antichrist. "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10) The hinderence of the opposing evil is totally dealt with forever. Whoever's name is not found written in the book of life joins the nemesis Satan - "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15) But as for the redeemed, they enjoy a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells -The sons of God are the constituents of the New Jerusalem. And surrounding the New Jerusalem are the nations on the new earth living in the light of the city of God (city means people here not buildings). "But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:13) To the regenerated man PART of his being is ALREADY in that new world - his reborn human spirit. He is tasting the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5). Because God NEEDS his cooperation these are called to HASTEN and not DELAY the coming of the day of God - " Expecting and HASTENING the coming of the day of God ..." (2 Peter 3:12a) This man is not causing hindrance but it HASTENING the ultimate vanquishing of God's enemies. The creation eagerly awaits the maturity and full manifestation of the sons of God who are hastening His coming, wooing Him back to this earth in full kingship - "For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God ... in hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory ofthe children of God." (See Rom. 8:20,21) So these people can hinder or hasten God's will. Man can hinder for a time, causing the Almighty some problems. But man in coordination can also hasten God's kingdom. We see evil totally vanquished. If you complain "Well, WHY is it not that way right NOW ???" That may be hard for me to answer.But God is working in TIME. And if we have faith and trust we can see what the final consummation of His work will be.I hear you saying "But because the New Jerusalem and the new heaven and earth are not here NOW, this proves something against God." It is not a problem to me. Part of my being is already IN that new age. And when I abide in this indwelling Life, this indwelling Person, evil in me is conquered.In the earliest days of the church the angel told the persecuted apostles - " Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life." (Acts 5:20) We Christians are living in this divine life and announcing as the good news all the words of this divine life. He has limited Himself. But when man is one with Him, what a glorious sight that is. He is then able to do far above all that we ask or even think.I can recall God telling Moses not to delay by calling on God, but to go ahead and cleave asunder the Red Sea ! " And Jehovah said to Moses, WHY DO YOU CRY OUT TO ME? Tell the children of Israel to move forward. And you, lift up your staff, and stretch out your hand over the sea, and divide it; and the children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground." When God secures a man on there earth who is one with Him His authority flows through him. There is a transmission of God's authority and power through the open channel. In time God is working to head up all things TO the church. This means a kind of transmission through a corporate channel of human beings one with His will -While some may focus on the hindrence, many of us rather focus on the effective cooperation and its result.Perhaps you are occupied with man as a hindrance to this God who is not as mighty as we thought.But many of us see a different angle. What an unspeakable priviledge that we redeemed could facilitte God's move on the earth. What a honor and what a sense of human worth this is to us. What a high calling this is. We would never speak of sacrifice. It is a an untold priviledgeIt is no wonder that Paul counted all else as dung, as dog food in comparison to his high calling in Christ Jesus. "But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on a account of Christ, ... I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus m Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ." (Phil. 3:7,8) I will stop here. But faith is effective because God is FAITHFUL. Faith is one side of the matter. The faithfulNESS of God is the other side.And God, since the fall of man at least, has chosen the intrument of faith as the means to combine Himself and dispense Himself into man. Faith is the means by which one Divine Person Christ can make His home in man's being - "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:17) I can see that you are going to ride this objection to the maximum.What is a problem there for you is not a problem to me. I don't know what you mean by a religious viewpoint. If there is a God then He is not the God of religion. He is the God of reality.I am just speaking of the reaction of some of us to the God of reality. Maybe I should utter the matter in a somewhat different manner.I count the Bible as infallible. I do not count my theology or my creedal formulas as on the same level as the word of God.If you insist to repeat that there are problems with saying God is "maximally" this or that, it is not a serious problem to me.At worst it means theological explanations can introduce pitfalls in metaphysical conversation.Its no biggy. "Maximally benevolent" "One God in Three Persons" "Omnipotent" ... etc. These expressions do have some imperfections to the rigorous philosophical academic.If any seeker of the truth has serious problems with these phrases, I would just advize them to give greater weight to what the Bible says and how it says it. We're just trying to help. We don't always help some folks.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I didn't say that God prescribed a certain amount of evil in order to prove His existence. I just said, coincidently the evil indirectly proves His existence. I did not say that God designated a certain amount of evil so that the question of His existence might be solved. I merely said that a by product of the problem of evil is that man must have a sense of the objective and true good. Indirectly and incidently this proves God's existence.Not everyone is in need of this indirect proof. Many of us simply believe in God's existence because of creation, because of Christ, because the Bible is a believable book. I think you lost me here. Please link me to your post on this matter. I don't follow this little argument. But when I do want to hear the side argued well that God is not needed for morality, I listen again to Shelley Kagan's debate with William Lane Craig. "Is God Necessary for Morality?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJnCQuPiuoAnd I think Shelley Kagan argues for the negative very well.
I'd take a class with him any day. But as of yet, I think I agree with Craig on a lot of what he says. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I would like to add some development to this post. These were the most ancient of God's creatures. Being the most ancient the book of Revelation symbolizes them as 24 elders in chapters 4 and 5.That is not elders of Israel or elders of the Christian church. That is elders of all creation. The eldest most created beings in the universe.Lucifer (Latin, or Daystar) who became Satan, was one of these early created angelic beings.He was first under the authority of God, as Phat says in communion, (I believe). He did NOT have the life of God. He did not have the indwelling of God. But he had high position, glorious attributes, and a surpassing wisdom which he totally corrupted. [color=yellow] "O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect and perfect in beauty." (Ezek. 28:12)

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"You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." (Ezek. 28:15) I found this helpful. I like to express this as this high being was under the authority of the Most High God. That is until he sought rebellion and to challenge the authority of God.This was the start of the "outside". The advasary within God's kingdom sets to make himself life the Most High God. In Isaiah there are the seven "I wills". Seven times Satan says "I will" do thus and such consummating in "I will be like the Most High". Isaiah 14:12-15 covers this being's revolt against God's authority. Ezekiel 28:13-17 covers this beings sin against God's holiness.The sin against God's holiness is more easily forgiven. The more serious problem is the challenge to God's authority. The introduction of the Satan's WILL was the beginning of more than one WILL in the creation of God. Previously there was in place only the will of God.Satan took his perfect wisdom and his great power and knowledge and established a second will opposed to God. He became the opposite of what God is ... a dynamic withdrawal into sin and death. Of course it was a degradation from good into evil.He corrupted his wisdom - "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom by reason of the brightness. (Isa. 28:17a) I want to emphasize though that this creature never shared the life of God. He was just the highest created being most likely. We do not know how long he stayed in a communion and under God's authority willingly. At some point he revolted and decieved millions of beings to join him.Maybe he said something like "You know God doesn't really appreciate you. You were made for better things. Now if I Satan were in charge, I would make sure that you got in the position you SHOULD be in. I'd take care of you. God is holding you down. God is holding you back from your greatest potential."He (Satan) is a LIAR and the father of lies. I agree. He challenged the authority of God. To be above the Most High is impossible. Satan sought to be LIKE the Most High.This can be certainly refered to as out of communion. He was out of the authority of the Final and Ultimate Governor.Yet this communion is not the same as the communion of the Holy Spirit given to the saints. God has been dispensed into the saints - the believers in Christ. This is something no angel ever had. This is the priviledge of a dusty new creation called MAN .MAN can receive God Himself into him. That is why God placed Adam before "the tree of life" God had the knowledge of good and evil. This is proved by Genesis 3:22 - "And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" Lucifer must of had this "knowledge of good and evil". But Lucifer CORRUPTED his wisdom - " Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom [knowledge of good and evil?] by reason of your brightness." I think Satan must have had this knowledge of good and evil. The serpent (representing Satan) seems to have had some PREVIOUS experience with the knowledge of good and evil - " ... You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:5) Remember that Satan sought to be LIKE the Most High God.
Now he tells Eve that God does not want HER or her husband to become like God.The lie - God is an arbitrary despot. God is a tyrant withholding back from other beings their greatest blessing. Quite a bit of energy and time is spent on this Forum by people who have bought into Satan's lie. All manner of accusations are hurled against God.We have just heard how God does not care for the victims who have their wills violated. This too is a lie. But I digress a bit.Satan's challenge was against the authority of God. And the question of WHO shall have the authority is the contraversy of the universe.There were two basic trees in the garden of Eden - the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:9) .
I think "the tree of life" not only signifies taking God Himself into one's being but also an acceptance of the authority of God.For certain it is the communion in the sense of as is meant in the New Testament - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14) I want to say that Satan came out from under the authority of the One Who is authority and upholds all things by His authority. His throne is established on His authority.At the end of the Bible the eternal and divine life is pouring out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the street of the New Jerusalem. His divine life is despensing from the seat of His authority. His uncreated and eternal being must be the basis of His great authority. And from this throne of universal administration dispenses His life into His sons forever - "And he showed me a river of water of life, right as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (Rev. 22:1) From the seat of His authority God is pouring His divine and uncreated life into the saved man who has been built up to become the City - the New Jerusalem.Satan and no angels ever had this right. I don't believe that Satan ever had the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that any angel ever had the Holy Spirit.BUT I do believe that the "inside communion" means within and under the authority of God.Of course to partake of the Holy Spirit is to be under the authority of God. For if we are not redeemed, not justified, not forgiven judicially, we can never partake of the Holy Spirit withing.My take on communion as you use it is to be under God's authority. In the creation of MAN a new kind of being came into existence. That is one in the image of God who can partake of God Himself within as life.This is not merely to live forever. God has angels who live forever.
Neither is this merely to be good.
God has many angels who remained good.The dusty being God created and which Satan has such intense jealousy of, is a being who can become compounded with God Himself so as to live God, live unto God, live out God and have God live THROUGH him.Jesus Christ the Son of God - and Jesus Christ mass produced. Adam choice of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil over the tree of life was a choice to join the Satanic rebellion. That is the revolt of the one who corrupted his wisdom.Adam's choice was to join the opposition party and thus to be infested with sin and death. The choice to step out from under God's authority was the choice of death.He became infested with a parasitic like cosmic leech. This presence, I think, may be what Paul refers to as contributing to spots and blemishes - an evil foreign element or at least the effects of an evil foreign element. "Even as He chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and WITHOUT BLEMISH before Him in love." The destiny, the destination of the believer in Christ is to arrive before God not only totally justified judicially but organically without spot, blemish or any such evil foreign element, and saturated with God's Holy Spirit.God wanted not just a good man. He wants a GODman.
He wants not only being who live forever.
He already has plenty of angels who live forever.
He want men mingled with God as His sons.Man took the knowledge of good and evil. What he did not realize that he joined himself to Satan. He took sin and death into his being.
Man would know good but not be able to fully carry out the good that he knows.
Man would know evil but not be able to fully resist the evil that he knows.It was a serious thing for man to partake of this knowledge of good and evil and be joined to Satan. It immediatly estranged man from God Himself in terrible estrangement (Gen. 3:22-24; Eph. 4:18) .This was the beginning of man being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) . This was the beginning of man being potentially under the wrath of God's judgment. This is why the rest of the Bible is the story of God's salvation to bring man back to the life of God and under the authority of God. Please write something on this if you can.Why did God tell Adam and Eve, after their eyes had been opened -
" Who told you that you are naked? " (Gen. 3:11) What do you think about that Phat?
Richh? What would you say if your there?Anyone with something besides a wisecrack is welcomed to enlighten me. "And he [Adam] said, I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I am naked; so I hid myself.

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And He [God] said, Who told you that you are naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" (Gen. 3:10,11)

Stile,My replies are going to be concise this afternoon. I think we can get clarified where each of us stands. The Christian walks by faith and not by sight in many things.
When we say "Jesus is Lord" we do not mean all around is now rosy.Nevertheless, God in Christ is operating towards that world we see in Revelation 21 and 22. Basically, your complaints sounds to me like - "Well, Why are we not NOW in what John saw in Revelation 21 and 22?"We are on the way. Sinners still have time to be saved. Oh, I don't know. I certainly discribe God as revealed in the Bible.
Don't you think that the 11 disciples thought that God must have FAILED or not been powerful enough for the three days in which Jesus lay dead in the tomb ?The God of resurrection is being manifested again and again down through the ages. I'll try to keep my responses related to me.
Phat can respond for him or herself. During the three days in which Christ as dead, the disciples must have been dejected by similar thoughts. The joy of knowing that Christ had conquered dead with His Love and His Power launched them to turn the world upside down.We still are spreading to all the Gospel of the God of resurrection.
There is still time for sinners to be saved.
This is not a downer to us.
We know as the third day vindicated both His love and His power, so the consummation of the age will vindicate Him. "In the world you will have tribulation. Fear not. I have overcome the world." Your philosophical dejection argues - "See? No maximally benevolent God. See? No maximally powerful God."Don't be so sure. The durability of the church and of the Gospel require proving, apparently. "The church of God is an anvil that has worn down many hammers."Besides - "maximally benevolent" or "maximally powerful" are theological expressions. They may not be perfect. They may introduce some dilliculties if one wants to press to find some.I take the Word of God to be inspired and infallible. As for my theological formulas - they are not perfect.I think more would just be repetitious now. I stop here.

The Bible has God asking the rhetorical question Is anything too hard for Jehovah?" "Is anything too marvelous for Jehovah?" (Gen. 18:14) "too marvelous" or "too wonderful" or "too hard" .Here then God asks Abraham if there is ANYTHING that is TOO HARD for God to do.Yet we also are told there some things God CANNOT do. One of them is to LIE - " ... that by two unchanageable things in which it was impossible for God to lie ..." (Hebrews 6:18) You have a paradox here -1.) A biblical indication that nothing is too hard for God to do.2.) A biblical indication that it is impossible for God to lie.While in theological talk we may borrow phrases like "maximally powerful" some of us don't press such phrases too far. I mean if God is maximally powerful then He should be powerful enough to lie and it should not be "impossible" for Him.Statements of the Bible trump theologically invented phrases.
Such phrases may be useful. They also may introduce problems.I guess God being all powerful does not mean He will do what is against His nature to do just to prove that He is powerful enough to do so.

Did I twist the meaning or implication of God's rhetorical question -
"Is there anything [pehleh] too hard [or too wonderful] for the Lord?" (Gen. 18:14) The context is God promising Abraham that in spite of him and his wife being way over age, they WILL have a baby. Have I twisted the implication of this verse ? How ?Did I twist the concept conveyed that it is impossible for God to lie from Hebrews 6:17 - " In order that by two unchangeable things in which it was impossible for God to lie, we may have strong encouragement ..." ?We the believers, may have strong encouragement because it was "IMPOSSIBLE for God to LIE ...".One verse implies nothing is too hard for God.
The other verse teaches to lie was impossible for God.Your job is to point out the "twisting" in my logic.Do I "twist" the fact that a biblical contradiction could be sited from the existence of these two passages? Do I "twist" by reasoning that a paradox is presented here concerning God's abilities ?Act like your hero and not like a troll.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.