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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 31 of 383 (687281)
01-09-2013 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jaywill
01-09-2013 6:11 AM


Re: Making Alive in ch. 1
Your Message 27 and Message 30 are just long versions of saying what I already said.
"Walk in the Spirit"
Apparently I wasn't using exhortation correctly based on Phat's question in Message 22. My point was that the phrase isn't used in Ephesians. Now that I've looked up the meaning and find that exhortation is inciting by argument or advice, I agree and had already stated in Message 19 that the author was saying that believers shouldn't fall back to old bad behavior. That was Paul's point in Galatians 5. They were to conduct their lives by thinking of others and not just their own needs. Galatians 5:16-25
"Alive in Christ"
quote:
Ephesians takes unbelievers from the place of being "alienated from the life of God" (4:18) to being partakers of "sonsship" (1:5), ie. sharing the begetting Father's divine, uncreated and eternal life.
I said in Message 25 that the author was summarizing Paul's argument concerning adoption into God's chosen family and you've provided the long version. Thanks for the confirmation.
What I've presented is that Ephesians is probably a cover letter for a collection of Pauline letters. The author is summarizing Paul's theology. Explanation or deeper understanding of what the author is talking about can probably be found in the Pauline epistles. Message 19

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 6:11 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 8:35 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 383 (687283)
01-09-2013 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jaywill
01-08-2013 5:54 PM


Ephesus Unplugged
NIV writes:
Eph 2:11-22--Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
The whole building is formed from the living stones that are now in communion.
Remember my Sun,Light, and Heat analogy to the trinitarian concept of God the Father, Jesus the Light and the heat of the Holy Spirit?
NIV writes:
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
The sun may be 93 million miles away, but the light shines directly upon us. God may have been a faraway concept, but the light of revelation offers acceptance in our sphere...in our time and in our heart.
Ephesians may have been written for us and not directly to us, though the timeless truths can be accepted and used by us for us. Paul goes on to say in Ephesians 3,
NIV writes:
Eph 3:2-6
Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.
I can accept this timeless truth as being applicable in 2013 as surely as it was applicable to the church in Ephesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jaywill, posted 01-08-2013 5:54 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 12:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 33 of 383 (687284)
01-09-2013 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
01-09-2013 7:41 AM


Re: Making Alive in ch. 1
Now that I've looked up the meaning and find that exhortation is inciting by argument or advice, I agree and had already stated in Message 19 that the author was saying that believers shouldn't fall back to old bad behavior. That was Paul's point in Galatians 5. They were to conduct their lives by thinking of others and not just their own needs. Galatians 5:16-25
Maybe I do not understand you well. Maybe I am not being fair.
But we have to be careful, or at least I as a Christian, have to be careful not to try to pour new wine into old wineskins.
Walk by the Spirit is nothing like "Turn over a new leaf". It is nothing like Self correction and self reform.
Walk by the Spirit is not self cultivation. It is not a humanistic self improvement. And it is not like the Chinese Confucius teaching of developing the "bright virtue" within.
I am concerned that one could read into this unique phrase of walking by the Spirit to mean something vaguely akin to making a new year's resolution or deciding to buckle down and improve one's own behavior.
This kind of understanding of the NT phrase to walk by the Spirit is a naturalistic humanist attitude which actually hinders rather than helps people to live the Christian life.
A good and kind Unitarian does not walk by the Spirit in this sense.
A ethical Buddhist or even a morally astute Atheist does not "walk by the Spirit".
I may self improve myself, and perhaps drop some bad habits. In so doing and not going along with some bad habits in the past that is not necessarily walking by the Spirit of Christ or by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.
The walk by the Spirit can only involve a living Lord Jesus. Any decision to merely think "What Would Jesus Do?" and then act like that is probably not walking in the Spirit.
We do not like to surrender this phrase for a common usage of the Humanist or Unitarian who believes that Jesus has left a good teaching but as Himself not available.
To walk by the Spirit involves surrendering up one's mind, emotion, will, and conscience more and more, chamber by chamber to the direction of a living and present Christ who lives in union with the Christian.
Perhaps I misunderstand you. But in Galatians that you mentioned, Pauls says " If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 3:26)
The one who believes into Christ as his Lord and Savior is the one who begins, via the new birth, to LIVE by the Spirit. Only that one can WALK by the Spirit.
If we have confessed that we are sinners and need the blood of Jesus for our redemption before God, we can receive Christ and commence to LIVE by the Spirit. Now what about our daily life?
Should we turn over a new leaf and try to do better ? We could have tried to do that as an Agnostic. Self improvement, self cultivation is the right of any human being. Any Atheist is entitled to give self improvement a go and achieve perhaps some measure of success she is happy with.
If we believers in Christ live by the Spirit, let us also step by step learn to WALK by that Spirit.
You will detect in my response some caution about surrendering up the unique New Testament exhortation to walk by the Spirit to mean a religious or humanistic desire to give a fresh go at being a good person by one's own natural energies.
The walking and living in the Holy Spirit in Ephesians has as its goal the building up of the Body of Christ. It is not to make the world a better place for us all to live. The walk of the individual indwelling is unto the building up of the corporate indwelling.
I said, the walk from the individual indwelling is unto, in view of, design to result in the building up of the aggregate and corporate indwelling for God's eternal purpose of having -
" .. a dwelling place of God in spirit" . A living temple of God as God's habitation within a group of people on the earth.
Now a BYPRODUCT of God coming to earth in a collective corporate temple is certainly an improvement of the planet. But His direct goal is to build up this corporate temple of God within humanity.
[color=yellow] ... fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy templee in the Lord. In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:19c-22)
We come to Christ to receive Himself as life in His resurrected form - "I am the resurrection and the life". We grow in Him to walk in Him. The two really work together. We walk in Him for the eternal purpose of God dispensing Himself into a group of people for the building of His living temple on the earth - the habitation of God in spirit.
The same thing is covered in the operation in each member causing the growth of the Body in another chapter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 01-09-2013 7:41 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 01-10-2013 9:05 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 01-10-2013 9:07 AM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 383 (687308)
01-09-2013 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jaywill
01-08-2013 8:44 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
jaywill writes:
The Gospel in the New Testament is the good news that this wonderful Person Jesus Christ is risen, alive, and in His own supernatural way is indeed AVAILABLE to me and in every whit to you too.
You're making the fundamental mistake that fundamentalists always make. You're turning the messenger into a cult hero and ignoring the message.
There's a certain symbolic value in the King sending his own son as his messenger. It shows that the message is important to the King and that he is willing to take certain risks, make certain sacrifices to have it delivered.
However, there is no operational significance in who the messenger is. The message is the same even if it is delivered by an expendable flunky.
It doesn't matter if the messenger dies, as long as the message gets through. Unfortunately, it often doesn't if you deify the messenger.
So I would say that "walking in the spirit" has more to do with the spirit of the message than the spirit of the messenger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jaywill, posted 01-08-2013 8:44 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 12:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 38 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 12:57 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 383 (687311)
01-09-2013 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
01-09-2013 11:57 AM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
Ringo writes:
So I would say that "walking in the spirit" has more to do with the spirit of the message than the spirit of the messenger.
Jesus is both the message and the messenger. The word is alive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 12:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 36 of 383 (687313)
01-09-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
01-09-2013 7:56 AM


Re: Ephesus Unplugged
I can accept this timeless truth as being applicable in 2013 as surely as it was applicable to the church in Ephesus.
Absolutely.
And I might add that the early Christians were not naive. Many of them knew when they held solid gold in their hands in terms of a letter from an apostle of Jesus.
They circulated these letters around. That contributed to the church fathers discovering the canonicity of shared and circulated writings - which were genuine and apostolic. They sifted through and discovered, not determined, but discovered which were inspired and authoritative.
Paul's desire was that his letter to one church would be read by another also -
"And when this letter is read among you, cause that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also, and that you also read the one from Laodicea." (Col. 4:16)
This desire of Paul, I feel, is only his reflection of the desire of God, of the Holy Spirit -
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" is repeated seven times after each of seven letters to individual local churches. All the churches were to benefit from what the Christ said to each one local church.
What was in Paul's heart was the same. There is something of the same thing which he taught in all the churches. Certain local details may differ. But basic truth is for ALL the churches to benefit from.
" Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, ... who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church." ( 1 Cor. 4:17a,c)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 7:56 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Richh, posted 02-11-2013 6:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 37 of 383 (687320)
01-09-2013 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
01-09-2013 12:04 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
Phat writes:
Jesus is both the message and the messenger. The word is alive.
That's a niche cliche. Does it mean anything?
Edited by ringo, : By the way, "niche" is a typo but I'm leaving it because it works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 12:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 38 of 383 (687321)
01-09-2013 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
01-09-2013 11:57 AM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
You're making the fundamental mistake that fundamentalists always make. You're turning the messenger into a cult hero and ignoring the message.
It is the other way around. It is the other way around.
No other teacher in the world should have ever been so exalted to be the centrality of the teaching as Jesus is to His message.
Now, Mohammed never claimed to be God.
Confucius never claimed to be God.
Buddha never claimed to be God and I don't think believed in God.
Zoraster did not claim to be God.
Baha'u'llah did not claim to be God.
Joseph Smith did not claim to be God.
Sun Myoung Moon did not claim to be God.
Elijah Mohammed did not claim to be God.
Mary Baker Eddy did not claim to be God.
Farrakan did not.
Herbert Armstrong did not.
Jesus Christ claimed to be God. The prophets predicted the coming of God as a Man. (Isaiah 9:6)
So you spread out your blanket erroneously to cover a Unique Teacher.
There's a certain symbolic value in the King sending his own son as his messenger. It shows that the message is important to the King and that he is willing to take certain risks, make certain sacrifices to have it delivered.
This concept now borders Arianism - that is that Jesus is not God incarnate but a great Messenger or Angel. This is the thought of the modern day Jehovah's Witnesses. This is the thought of the modern day "The Way International".
This is why the ancient brothers had to FIGHT to maintain that Christ was God incarnated and we got troublesome words like Trinity. They did so justifiably because the New Testament teaches that the One sent is God Himself incarnate as a man.
God sent God. God was sent by God. God came with God.
But this is also important. God sent God into man to make man God. It was not a one way trip. It is a round trip. As Athanasius wrote - God became a man so that man might become God.
God became man so that the communicable attributes of God might be secured in man - God becomes man so as to make man God in life and nature but not in the Godhead.
However, there is no operational significance in who the messenger is. The message is the same even if it is delivered by an expendable flunky.
Explicitely not true. Far from the truth when it comes to the New Testament. Far, far from the truth.
Jesus made it EMPHATIC that He was the message. Here is one place where He went way out of His way to make Himself the essence of the message from God -
" Jesus therefore said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within yourselves.
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day.
For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him.
As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me also shall live because of Me." (John 6:53-57)
This is not a teaching of Catholic transubstantiation. This is not me showing that Jesus taught the bread and wine of the Lord's Table becomes His flesh and blood in my mouth.
But this is the emphatic teaching that a man must accept the incarnation of God having become a man in Jesus Christ. Eat His flesh and drink His blood. For it is the reality, the truth of God that God has become a man.
And this is also why the Bible has made so much a matter of the BLOOD of Jesus. You have to be saved under the spilt blood of Jesus. The blood is the very life. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgivenesss.
God has become a human life and died for us. And the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from all sin.
It doesn't matter if the messenger dies, as long as the message gets through. Unfortunately, it often doesn't if you deify the messenger.
You need mercy that the scales would fall from the eyes of your heart.
When Jesus said that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, many of the disciples could not take it. They began to leave Jesus.
" Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this, said, This word is hard, who can hear it?"
Jesus never apologized. He told the twelve - "Does this stumble you? Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? "
What are the skeptical going to do when they finally see the Man Jesus seated on the throne of God with absolute universal authority?
What are you going to do then Ringo?
After some of the discples withdrew, Peter confessed that they had nowhere to go:
"From that time many of His disciples went bacl to what [they left] behind and no longer walked with Him.
Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Do you also want to go away?
Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." (6:66-69)
BUT HERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. ACKTUNG!
( I know, "get over yourself jaywill" )
Jesus does explain His words after the stumbled ones depart.
"It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (v.63)
It is the Spirit that gives divine life.
It is the Spirit that dispenses divine life into forgiven sinners.
To EAT Him is really to fully accept His words.
Can anyone tell me what the last Adam became ?
Anyone?
What now did the last Adam, Christ, become ?
" ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
If you open your whole being to His words you take Him in with His words. The Christ, in resurrection, became the life giving Spirit. You cannot see Him now. But He is available in the Holy Spirit and in His very words.
So I would say that "walking in the spirit" has more to do with the spirit of the message than the spirit of the messenger.
I'll reply to this in another post.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 1:23 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 39 of 383 (687322)
01-09-2013 1:10 PM


So I would say that "walking in the spirit" has more to do with the spirit of the message than the spirit of the messenger.
Find me the equivalent of this teaching among any spiritual teachers of the worlds religion. Quote to us an equivalent pronouncement:
" Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Jesus, WITH His Father, will come to His lover and the Divine WE of He and His Father will make an abode with His lover.
The next post from Ringo, I expect him to produce a equivalent promise from another teacher of a world religion.
Where did a teacher say that he and his Father God would come to live in his disciple as an abode ?

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 383 (687325)
01-09-2013 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jaywill
01-09-2013 12:57 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
jaywill writes:
God sent God. God was sent by God. God came with God.
Even if the King carries his own message, the message is still more important than the messenger.
jaywill writes:
Find me the equivalent of this teaching among any spiritual teachers of the worlds religion.
So other messengers didn't put themselves above the message? Good for them.
Your claim that Jesus did put himself above the message isn't really the topic here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 12:57 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 2:24 PM ringo has replied
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 3:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 383 (687329)
01-09-2013 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
01-09-2013 1:23 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
Ringo writes:
Even if the King carries his own message, the message is still more important than the messenger.
Deut 8:1-4 writes:
1 Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the LORD promised on oath to your forefathers. 2 Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
the message is the content. The messenger is the source. I can see where the identity of the author is not as important as the message which he brings. We could argue whether the flunkie was inspired by the Spirit or was an unemployed script writer till the Holy cows come home.
Ringo writes:
It doesn't matter if the messenger dies, as long as the message gets through. Unfortunately, it often doesn't if you deify the messenger.
So for the moment, we won't Deify Jesus as the light of the Sun. We will simply enjoy the heat.
Anyway, back to Ephesians.
NIV writes:
Eph 3:7-19-- I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
...to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
To explain the unsearchable riches of the anointing(also the Anointed One)and to make plain the administration of this mystery(the message, maybe?) which was previously hidden in God who created all things.
Lets examine this word, administration, shall we?
How about a Strongs reference in another translation?
administration=fellowship.(KJV) Administration=dispensation(American Standard)
Vines writes:
DISPENSATION
in Eph 1:10 and 3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph 3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation."
Also the word, mystery.
Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers writes:
MYSTERY
In the New Testament, mystery refers to a secret that is revealed by God to His servants through His Spirit. As such, it is an "open secret." Mystery occurs three times in the Gospels. Jesus told His disciples, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God" (Matt 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10). Jesus explained the mystery of God's kingdom to His disciples. But to others He declared, "All things come in parables" (Mark 4:11).
Most of the occurrences of the word mystery are in the Pauline Epistles. Mystery refers to the revelation of God's plan of salvation as that plan focuses in Christ. The gospel itself is a "mystery which was kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25). This mystery was revealed by God through the prophetic Scriptures to Paul and the church (1 Cor 2:7; Eph 6:19; Col 4:3).
Nelsons says that Mystery refers to the revelation of God's plan of salvation as that plan focuses in Christ. For Ringos sake, we can agree that the mystery can refer the revelation of God's plan of salvation as that plan focuses in the anointed message to us. Capiche?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 1:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 01-10-2013 11:54 AM Phat has not replied
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 42 of 383 (687331)
01-09-2013 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
01-09-2013 1:23 PM


Re: The Available Jesus Christ
Even if the King carries his own message, the message is still more important than the messenger.
No. If you do not receive the king's authority you do not receive the king's message.
Man's rejection of Christ according to His words is the rejection of God's authority and thus the rejection of God.
Now, By all means - where in the book of Ephesians can we see such a teaching ?
First of all we see it in Christ's words. Then we see it in the words of the apostles.
1.) Christ's words -
"For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (John 5:22,23)
There is no dishonoring the Son as the delegated authority as Ringo imagines while honoring the Father who sent the Son.
2.) God's eternal purpose is to head up all things under the Son -
"He [the Father] caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavens, Far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but in that which is to come.
And He subjected all things under His [Christ's] feet and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all." (See Eph. 1:20-21)
Don't attempt to slip a little lie in here and then shrug and say "Back to the Topic." You're wrong.
Paul says in Ephesians that you're wrong. And the Apostle John says the same thing -
" If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, because this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son. He who believes into the Son of God has the testimony in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar because he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified concerning His Son.
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12,13)
It is no wonder that in Ephesians that Paul says the TRUTH [the reality] is in Jesus -
" If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus" (Eph. 4:21)
Does it seem like just idle words to you Ringo?
They are not just idle words.
jaywill writes:
Find me the equivalent of this teaching among any spiritual teachers of the worlds religion.
So other messengers didn't put themselves above the message? Good for them.
Your claim that Jesus did put himself above the message isn't really the topic here.
Don't try to slip in a gross error of understanding of the Bible and hide behind "getting back to the topic." The universal exaltation of Christ as the Head over all things to the church is of the topic of Ephesians. Have you Read It ?
God has made Christ the Head over all things to the church. Holding to the Person of Christ is holding to the truth -
"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ ..." (4:15)
Christ as the Head over all things in this age and in the age to come and in the ages to come is crucial teaching in Ephesians. You err in negating that with talk about exalting the messenger above the message.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-09-2013 1:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-10-2013 12:09 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 43 of 383 (687335)
01-09-2013 3:38 PM


The word OIKONOMIA or ECONOMY (sometimes rendered DISPENSATION) literally means -
law of the house or house law.
The economy refers to how God manages His household. The arrangement and dispensation of the house's owner to the people within the house is the OIKONOMIA or the economy of God.
I believe that you will also find the rendering of this Greek word as STEWARDSHIP.
Stewardship, Dispensation, Economy - God has RICHES to dispense to those in His household. There is the law of the dispensing of His untold riches to His family members.
Paul writes that from our side as believing human beings God's economy is in the realm of FAITH.
This can be seen in two important places - in Ephesians and in First Timothy
" Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy [OIKONOMIA] which is in faith ..." ( 1 Timothy 1:4,5)
The whole realm of God dispensing His life into man is in the sphere and realm of FAITH. The FAITHFUL God has chosen in this age at least, the way of faith as the means by which He dispenses untold wealth into His redeemed children.
Then we see very much the same thing in our topic book Ephesians - "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, .." (Eph. 3:17)
God is FAITHFUL. Through our faith in the faithful God -
We are redeemed. We are justified forever. We are regenerated and born of God. We are sanctified. We are resurrected and glorified.
We are built up together into God's habitation in spirit through the same faith. And through faith Christ makes His home deeper and deeper, more and more, more extensively and wideningly in us.
Back to the matter of WALKING by the Spirit:
Paul says God's economy is in the realm of faith - FAITH in the FAITHFUL God. Paul says in a sister book Colossians -
" As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him ..." (Col. 2:6)
We receive Him into our being by faith - "Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I receive you as my Lord, as my savior. Thankyou Lord."
We receive Him by faith because God is faithful. As we receive Him we should continue in the same manner to WALK in Him - "Lord Jesus YOU are my patience. Lord Jesus YOU are my wisdom. Lord Jesus YOU YOURSELF are my endurance, my love, my devotion, my very consecration. Lord Jesus YOU are my everything."
As we RECEIVE Christ the Lord we should then continue in the same manner to step by step WALK in Him.
This is the exact same thing as is uttered slightly differently in Galatians -
" If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:25)
Man's faith in Christ is the most mighty thing. It deserve no pity. God's household law and His dispensation is carried out in the realm of faith. It is not faith in a vacuum.
It is faith in the God who is FAITHFUL.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 4:00 PM jaywill has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 383 (687338)
01-09-2013 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jaywill
01-09-2013 3:38 PM


Ephesians Unplugged
jaywill writes:
Man's faith in Christ is the most mighty thing. It deserve no pity. God's household law and His dispensation is carried out in the realm of faith. It is not faith in a vacuum.
I wont disagree with you, jay. I am simply saying that faith in Christ(the messenger) is evident to some of us but for others, faith in the anointed word is more important to them.(the message)
For Ringos sake i will teach both approaches, as they are not incompatible anyway. (The messenger is the message.
The Anointed One is the Anointed Word.
Now where were we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 3:38 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 5:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 45 of 383 (687347)
01-09-2013 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
01-09-2013 4:00 PM


Re: Ephesians Unplugged
I wont disagree with you, jay. I am simply saying that faith in Christ(the messenger) is evident to some of us but for others, faith in the anointed word is more important to them.(the message)
What I was writing there was in no way intended to negate anything you wrote. At least not intentionally.
I have offered some re-examination of something you contributed elsewhere. I was not trying to do so in that paragraph.
I think your posts are very good on Ephesians.
For Ringos sake i will teach both approaches, as they are not incompatible anyway. (The messenger is the message.
The Anointed One is the Anointed Word.
Now where were we?
I think where I am is to be very careful who is talking to who and try to detect the proper flow of the conversation.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 4:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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