Have You Ever Read Ephesians?

I like the idea of verse by verse.I was spending some time recently in Eph 1:1-14. There are some marvelous words there ascribed to God the Father, for example, grace, wisdom, prudence, love, peace and counsel.Then there are words like will, good pleasure, purpose and economy.Then there are words like blessed, chose, predestinated, redeemed, forgave, designated as an inheritance (one word in Greek), made known and sealed. These are the issue of His grace, wisdom, will, purpose and economy, etc., and they demonstrate His love, purpose and good pleasure.This section doesn't speak of the church is so many words, but of the members of the church and their individual blessings.I think it is a sweet section.His good pleasure is my good pleasure.But I also think it is also challenging to digest.I found a lovely song on this section: Source: Hymn: The divine dispensingEdited by Richh, : No reason given.

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Maybe I do not understand you well. Maybe I am not being fair.

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But we have to be careful, or at least I as a Christian, have to be careful not to try to pour new wine into old wineskins.

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Walk by the Spirit is nothing like "Turn over a new leaf". It is nothing like Self correction and self reform.

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Walk by the Spirit is not self cultivation. It is not a humanistic self improvement. And it is not like the Chinese Confucius teaching of developing the "bright virtue" within.

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I try to avoid using idioms without providing explanations. I'm trying to look at the reality and practical application.The new and old wine parable is not part of Paul's teaching and really concerns a different issue than self correction. That's really a different debate.Greeks choosing to change from previous Greek lifestyle and belief system to a Christian lifestyle and belief system is like turning over a new leaf. Believing in Christ is a choice. Leaving the old ways behind is a choice. Supposedly once that choice is made, the Holy Spirit is to help believers with self control in maintaining that choice. Per Paul, self control is a fruit of the spirit. (Galatians 5)Since this letter is urging people to remember and urging them to live a life worthy of the calling they received (Ephesians 4), there is an element of self in the equation. We are still responsible for our choices and even conducting our lives "by the spirit" requires daily choices on our part.

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A good and kind Unitarian does not walk by the Spirit in this sense.
A ethical Buddhist or even a morally astute Atheist does not "walk by the Spirit".

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They choose not to be guided by the Christian Holy Spirit; but right behavior is right behavior whether guided by a belief system or not.
This debate is about the Christian lifestyle not any other.

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You will detect in my response some caution about surrendering up the unique New Testament exhortation to walk by the Spirit to mean a religious or humanistic desire to give a fresh go at being a good person by one's own natural energies.

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Turning over a new leaf doesn't automatically mean taking a fresh go a being good. It is just a change in one's actions or attitude. Could be good or could be bad. To repent is to change one's mind or purpose. Each person is going to have their own way of changing their life style if they choose. Christians choose to follow the ways of God/Jesus.No matter how one spins the religious verbiage; individuals have to make a choice.
Believers choose to surrender, they aren't forced to.

I agree.
One cannot simply walk in the Spirit by trying to do their very best. We are not God nor is it beneficial to act like a "walking copy of Jesus" and assume that your own internal energy or goodness is enough to imitate the One who Is, Was, and Will be. We are commanded to do...good works and walks. We are not to attribute this passion and charge to our own internal energy. Walking in the Spirit, to me, means surrendering my own ego and allowing God to shine through me. It means denying myself. It means that Jesus is the focal point. The rest flows out of that. I agree with you as this mirrors my own belief.add by edit: Perhaps right is right whatever, but Holy is through the Trinitarian Holy Spirit and no other. This is the crux of my position in that debate. Jesus Christ is always the focal point. In order for a Unitarian to walk in the Spirit, a unitarian must have a relationship with Jesus. As must a psychologist, a Buddhist, or any other belief system. The Holy Spirit simply wont flow without communion with Jesus Christ. No other lovey dovey philosophy can imitate this truth. for this is a living truth.Edited by Phat, : added

I used the wrong analogy and without adaquate explanation.
But if I have to use a more accurate one, I'll try to explain a little further. Me too. As I said above, I meant another parable very close to that one.
For now I'll drop the relevance of the parables to this matter under examination - "walking by the Spirit."It may be necessary for me to revisit the connection. If I do, I will be more careful to explain what I mean. It is not irrelevant. It may be unnecessary at the moment. Actually, to be born is hardly like "turning over a new leaf." And to become a Christian is a matter of a supernatural birth.Do you believe that being a Christian is a supernatural matter?
I definitely do in my (as you say) practical experience.Now to be re-born or born again is a new beginning. In that sense I guess "turning over a new leaf" might be some people's idea. However any new self improvement, self cultivation, or resolution to do better in life apart from receiving Christ as Lord is not New Testament re-birth.If the objection is raised that there is no such "new-birth" or being born again in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, I would point to chapter 2. You have there the spiritually DEAD being MADE ALIVE in Christ, by God's operation. That is Paul's way in Ephesians of speaking of the born again experience taught in John's Gospel - "And you, though DEAD in your offenses and sins, in which you once walked ... God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD in offenses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) ..." (See 2:1-5 my emphasis) I include this point because I kind of anticipate an objection from someone that Ephesians says nothing about being re-born.Need I say more about this ?
You spoke I think of reason and logic I think?
Okay, here's the clear reasoning.1.) Paul says the believers were previously DEAD. Yet he cannot mean they were physically dead because he describes the behavior of such DEAD ones in their mind and body.2.) Paul further says that the fallen sinners are "alienated from the life of God" (4:18) . So the DEAD in offenses and sins walking around must be the deadness of being "alienated from the life of God".3.) To be MADE ALIVE is therefore not a physical resurrection yet. Paul is speaking of terminating the condition of being "alienated from the life of God" by placing Jesus Christ in the believers and the believers in Jesus Christ.This is something supernatural. And the supernaturalness of it is strongly implied by these words - " ... ( by grace you have been saved) ... For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works that no one should boast." (See 2:5-9) The new birth (Ephesians's style) - not of your natural energy, nor of mine. It is the gift of God. We can receive the GIFT. We can also refuse the GIFT.Of course it should be understood that the new birth (Ephesian's style) is miraculous because it is by the idenditcal same supernatural power which raised Jesus from the dead - "And what is the surpassing greatness of His [supernatural] power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operatee in Christ in raising Him from the dead ..." (1:19,20a) Supernatural operation of God's power raised Christ from the dead.
The same operation made us alive together with Christ.If someone want to say Christ rising from the dead was a sort of Christ "turning over a new leaf" then perhaps I'll agree that in that supernatural sense the new birth and the walking by the Spirit is the same sort of "turning over a new leaf."I'll stop here and read you other comments below. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It's still just Christian verbiage for making a change. Being born again is change.I'm not disagreeing that the NT writers were presenting a supernatural element that goes along with the choice to believe, but they also didn't negate the individuals responsibility for their choices in their daily lives.Ephesians shows this by encouraging people to persevere, keep on track. If the supernatural took over with no interference from the individuals mind, then they wouldn't stray and wouldn't need encouragement. Believers couldn't be tempted.Some Christians were getting apathetic. Reminders wouldn't be necessary.

The Holy Spirit contains the humanity of the man Jesus.So as He lived by the Father the Christian denies himself and lives by the Spirit of Christ. Self control is one of the attributes of this fine and perfect man.It is a supernatural matter that God can compound the characteristics of the resurrected Jesus into the open and submissive personality of the believers in Christ.Actually, they have been crucified with Christ. This is exceedingly practical. But I won't say much about this just yet. He has terminated and buried the old man.Paul learned that haning on to his ego was futile because he had already been crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, terminated, put away and raised a new man in Christ.The old self centered Adamic fallen man has been condemned in Christ's death. He did not reform it. He terminated it. This is something in the supernatural realm. But it is exceedinly practical to the normal Christian walk. As a result the rejector of the new birth via the Holy Spirit is under the wrath of God. He may only look forward to perishing. " .. you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; ... and were by nature the children of wrath ..." (See 2:1-3) In rejecting the prompting of the Holy Spirit, first of all to believe into Jesus, the sinner is not saved from God's judgment for eternity. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." (2:8) The Unitarian who refuses to believe into the Son of God rejects the gift of salvation.The Unitarian who becomes wise one day, and decides that regardless of religious affiliation she or he want to believe that Christ is the Lord - the resurrected Son of God, will be saved. This person has received Christ and therefore received the gift of God.It is not necessary initially to know a lot of doctrines. It is easy to be saved from eternal perdition. One believes into Christ and one is saved in eternal redemption. He may not understand too much. He understands that Jesus is his Lord and has been raised from the dead, and he receives this Jesus.Of course the new WALK should follow the new birth.
But any deciding not to believe in Christ is definitely deciding not to be led by the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ in the first place. That person is already abiding under the wrath of God. I don't know exactly what you mean by "this debate."Right behavior can be rebellion against God. Did you ever read the story of Saul being told to kill all the Amalekites. Yet he spared some of the cattle in order to offer sacrifices to God ? He spared king Agag and he sparred some of the cattle in disobedience to God's command.What did the prophet Samuel tell King Saul? Was he happy? Did he say God was pleased with this "good" behavior from Saul?

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" ... God ordered Saul to attack the Amalekites and destroy them utterly (1 Sam. 15). Yet after his wictory Saul spared Agag, king o fthe Amalekites, along with the best of the sheep and oxen and the fatted beasts and lambs and all that was good. Saul would not devote them to destruction; he argued that these were spared to sacrifice to God. But Samuel said to him: "Behold, obedience is better than sacrifice, Attention than the fat of rams" (verse 15:22 Darby). The sacrifices mentioned here wore sweet-savor offerings - having nothing to do with sin, for sin-offering was never called an offering of sweet-savor. They were offered for God's acceptance and satisfaction. Why did Samuel say that "obedience is better than sacrifice"? Because even in sacrifice there can be the element of self-will. Obedience alone is absolutely honoring to God, for it alone takes God's will as its center."

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[Spiritual Authority, Watchman Nee, CLC, pg. 13]

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God commands us to believe into the Son of God. Obedience to this is better than any kind of religious or non-religious good deeds. Samuel told Saul that rebellion was like the sin of witchcraft. God would not impressed with Saul's good deed in rebellion to His command.Our good can be revolt.
Our good can be rejection of God's authority.So Paul said "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" Now one may say "But I don't CARE about the gift of God. I only care to do good."We are free to take that attitude. But we will not be doing the will of God."But good is good is good." We may protest. From Genesis chapter 4 we should learn that Cain's good offering of the vegetative fruits of the ground were rejected by God. He wanted the blood offering because in shadow God only wants Christ His Son.So you may say that it is quite optional to be led by the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ and optionally be led to walk in Christ. But you will be outside of the will of God. He commands that we believe in the Son.Do I depart from the topic of Ephesians now? Hardly so! God's will is to subject all things to Christ the Head over all things. " And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be the Head over all things ... " (1:22) To not believe in the Son because one does not want to be enfluenced by the Holy Spirit, is to reject the Headship of the Son. Pluralism can be a cloke to reject the Headship of the One whom God has given all authority - "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matt. 28:18-20a) Some think to use pluralism and "tolerance" as a cloke to reject the one into whose keeping "all authority" has been given by God, in the wake of making this One Head over all things. I didn't say that Christians are forced to choose to surrender.Each person may have their own way of "changing their life style."
Though each has this freedom, he does not have the freedom to designate that as doing the will of God. God commands us to believe the Gospel of the died and risen Christ.From some sense of pluralism or tolerance one can say " I choose to change my life style quite apart from the Christ." This rejection of Christ will result in them abiding under the judgmental wrath of God.So say I? No, so says the book of Ephesians which we are supposed to be studying here - " ... you once walked according to the age of this world, accoding to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lists of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest.

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BUT GOD [my emphasis] ..., being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us; even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) By choosing another way to live, you are not saved.
By choosing to not be led by the Holy Spirit, you remain dead in offenses.If you could choose to live right from today on, (which you will fail at in some degree), your offenses of yesterday and before are still before God. So you need redemption from all past offenses. And you need provision to live unto God for the future by the Spirit of Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

To us who have experience these are things said, as you suggest, in reality and practicality.I am trying here to show both the reality and practicality of the teaching in Ephesians. True.Even though the believe in Christ is eternally redeemed, STILL God says judgment begins at the house of God. He can do many things to perfect His own sons short of causing them to perish forever.Individual responsibility to follow the Spirit of Christ after having been born of Christ is certainly not in dispute by me. How could I possibly be disputingt this when I reviewed Paul's exhortation to the saved -If we live by the Spirit LET US also walk by the Spirit.As therefore we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in Him.The very exhortations which I submitted posts ago strongly indicate personal responsibility of the saved believers to now go on to walk in Christ, grow in Christ, etc.But man's first obligation is to believe into Christ to be redeemed and to be made alive. But walking by the Spirit is definitely like a salmon fish swimming upstream.Reality? Practicality you are interested in? The world current is always in the opposition to God. The current of the world society is ever away from God. To walk in Christ is against the current and against the dowmward flow of the whole world.So exhortation is needed. So the more experienced must encourage the learning. The steady must help the floundering. And our brother Paul wrote some 13 or so letters to assist the floundering. They are his letters in the New Testament.Thank God that were some pioneers in this walk. Mildly put. It is worse than that.But I don't have to live that way. I can prayerfully read and consider the book of Ephesians. That's helpful. I am not sure what the comment about Paul's "disguise" means though without further reading of Goodspeed's explanation here. I think you are being a tad over idealistic. I told you that the current of the whole world is against the will of God. The Christians is a salmon swimming upstream in this age.Perhaps you do not understand the fierce spiritual warfare that is raging. God has subected all things under the Headship of Christ. Satan is not happy about this. The spirit that is now operating in the sons of disobedience, is not taking this without a fight.The warfare is over the planet. The fight is over the future as to whose kingdom will the world be - of Satan or of God. "Your kingdom COME. YOUR will be done. Yours be the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever." This is the prayer Christ taught His disciples to emulate.Training, reminder, teaching, exhortation, example, stumbling and getting up again even seven times, is needed. We do not DRIFT into the kingdom of God. We do not passively drift under the reign of God.There is ONE who is firmly under God's rule - the Son. We must be attached to Him. We must be joined to Him. And for this the stronger encourage the weaker. Indeed we all, in the Body of Christ, encourage one another regardless.And the believer seeks to persuade the unbeliever to be made alive. Not by preaching with words only but by life example.

The question is whether God's plan is, "Love God and love thy neighbour as thyself," or, "Allow me to rescue you from my vengeance."Edited by ringo, : Spellinge.

But it doesn't matter how or why the King's authority is accepted. Ultimately, what counts is whether or not the message makes sense. If you respect the King, you're likely to suspect that a nonsensical message didn't come from him, regardless of what the messenger claims. I don't reject either God's authority or Christ his messenger. I reject jaywill's claims about the message because jaywill's version of the message is nonsensical. I haven't said anything about "idle words". What I've said is that the message (the words) is what counts and it doesn't matter who says them. What we disagree on is what the message is. You say it's about how God will help us escape his own wrath against us. I say it's about how we should live our lives. On the contrary, the head of the organization is not the organization. The head exists to lead the body but without the body it has no value.

I'm not sure why you find what I've said to be difficult or feel the basics are different than what you're presenting or what Ephesians is presenting.
I just left out all the religious verbiage.I haven't presented that the author of Ephesians says we should be separate from Christ. This thread deals with Ephesians, which pertains to Christians.

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By choosing another way to live, you are not saved.
By choosing to not be led by the Holy Spirit, you remain dead in offenses.

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If you could choose to live right from today on, (which you will fail at in some degree), your offenses of yesterday and before are still before God. So you need redemption from all past offenses. And you need provision to live unto God for the future by the Spirit of Christ.

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But man's first obligation is to believe into Christ to be redeemed and to be made alive. Message 52

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I haven't presented anything to the contrary either. As Paul pointed out, all one needs is belief to be adopted.Paul was trying to bring these people into the family of the God of Abraham. Paul's overall point is that the Jews weren't chosen because of their stellar behavior. Abraham believed in the one God and God chose to protect Abraham and his descendants. But...within that chosen group, those who were in right standing with the God of Abraham were the ones who were behaving.Paul presents the Gentiles as adopted into that family. His argument is that they weren't adopted in because of stellar behavior, but through belief just like Abraham. (Romans 4) But...being part of the family also means one has to behave according to the rules of the family. All are loved, but all are to behave or suffer the consequences. (Romans 6-7)Getting into God's family takes belief, but being in right standing with God takes right behavior. Unbelief gets one removed from the family, not wrong behavior. (Romans 11)The author of Ephesians is talking to Christians, not people who have not chosen to believe in Christ. So they are already adopted into the family or saved if you wish. They may be getting lax in their behavior: not taking care of others or family as they should or straying from the path once too often, etc. He is spurring them to remember and get back on the path.

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The world current is always in the opposition to God. The current of the world society is ever away from God. To walk in Christ is against the current and against the dowmward flow of the whole world.

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So exhortation is needed. So the more experienced must encourage the learning. The steady must help the floundering. And our brother Paul wrote some 13 or so letters to assist the floundering. They are his letters in the New Testament. Message 52

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Those floundering have to make a choice to read the letters. Those not floundering have to make a choice to help those who are floundering.Christians make daily choices to continue on the path or not, to continue to believe or not.Since I'm only talking about Christians, I'm not sure why you feel my posts are contrary to what you are saying or what Ephesians is saying. You're basically confirming what I've said.

"Religious verbiage" ... "religious jargon" ... however you'd like to speak of the terms and phrases Paul uses, which I think are under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.Econcomy, dispensation, head up, redemption, made alive, sonship .. I will continue to use good translations of the Greek words actually written by the Apostle Paul.I certainly have no reason to despise such phrases. And I let you use your kind of verbiage such as "life-style". Yes. The letter is to the saints in Ephesis. But the Gospel that it presents deals with these people BEFORE they became saints. So it is relevant to the discussion, I think.Ie. when they were in this condition it was prior to them being sanctified ones - saints (2:2,3) .Addressed to Christians? Certainly. Related also to non-Christians? Also, certainly. All one needs is faith in Christ to be made alive - born of God.
All one needs is faith in Christ to enjoy redemption.I believe that above I brought out that the way the man initially receives Christ is the way he is exhorted to continue on to WALK in Him. The passage was borrowed over from Colossians - "As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col 2:5) I learned many of these things by practical experience too. You did mention reality and practicality.There is the gift of divine life, for sure. But in the same sense there is, subjectively and experiencially, "the gift of righteousness" in a daily practical sense by exercising the same faith to take Christ item by item as one's own.I borrowed over the verbiage "the gift of righteousness" in this case from Paul's letter to the Romans. Allow me please - " ... much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17b) This is relevant to Ephesians. Throughout all of Paul's writings, including Ephesians, there are two aspects to righteousness:1.) There is the righteousness in standing, objective - because of the once and for all judicial redemption. This has not yet effected much the daily living of the believing sinner.2.) There is the subjective and lived out daily practical righteousness for the building up of the church.Now BOTH are really a matter of gift. And the experienced Christian should quickly learn this.1.) He realizes that it is God's GIFT that he has been thoroughly cleansed of all his sins and is justified before God in standing, objectively and forever. He will never perish. This was surely a gift received.2.) He realizes as he grows in Christ that the righteous manner in which he is learning to react and live is not of himself. It too is a gift from the abundance of grace available to him. He learns he can take Christ as his patience, Christ as his self control, Christ as his love, Christ as his consecration.To speak properly to his spouse, he needs and takes Christ.
To deal righteously on his job, he needs and takes Christ.
To love his neighbor, he takes Christ to be his love.
To love his enemy, he cannot do so on his own. He must take Christ.Growth then is taking Christ by faith item after item after item to be one's own because Christ is in him.Watchman Nee put it very well. The problem with the Christians is not that they do not have enough Christ. It is that they have too many things OTHER than Christ.In Him are all the riches needed to live a proper human life on the highest standard of morality. And in Him are the riches to live for God's eternal purpose for which He created all things.And that "verbiage" is right here: " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord JesusChrist, who has blessed us WITH EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING in the heavenliess in Christ." (my emphasis) Ie. "In Christ we believers have been furnished with EVERYTHING we need."But what about the outsider? What about the one not believing in Christ yet? Is there any relevance of Ephesians to such a one ?Well, the same RICHES available to the believer are presented in the very Gospel Paul preaches to the nations. Right here says so - " To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" (3:8 RcV) He does not say he announces this gospel to only the church. He says he announces this gospel to the Gentiles or to the nations of the world. But what is the contents of this gospel? " the UNSEARCHABLE RICHES OF CHRIST ... as the gospel" Much could be written about this. But to the SAINTS, the "insiders" the Christians - "every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies" is taught.Toward the "outside" of the Gentile nations, not yet become a believer in Christ - "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" is announced by Paul. And he considers it an unspeakable honor that he be chosen to do this.Are you taking the word "adopted" from the KJV translation of 1:5?
I appreciate the literal meaning of the word there - the place of a son. So SONSHIP has been used in my Recovery Version."Adopted" is okay. But it is more a legal matter. But SON in SONSHIP underscores not just a legal turning over to God's family but a being "organically" born into it. The relationship is not only legal but a matter of having the Father's life.God can dispense Himself in His communicable aspects into human beings making them His SONS with His own divine life. This is not insignificant. That is right. The Jews were chosen for the Old Covenant made at Sinai related to their keeping the law of Moses.But before the law the Promise of God was their's not related to their law keeping.Paul was a strict Pharisee before he became a disciple of Jesus. And Paul surely knew that the Old Covenant was related to Israel keeping the law - "Indeed the days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, NOT LIKE the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt ..." (Jeremiah 31:31,32a) This proves that the giving of the law of Moses at the Exodus at Mt. Sinai was indeed God making a covenant with His nation. That nation though already had a PROMISE concerning certain blessings which was only related to God's faithfulness to His friend Abraham. This you bring out, I think.But the same prophecy speaks of a "new covenant" which will be the new testament in Christ. God will make a new covenant. not like the Mt. Sinai covenant.He will "organically" write His laws into their inner being. Given further examination of the Bible this mean imparting the Spirit of Christ as the Third of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit into the believers. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares Jehovah: I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts; and I will be God to them , and they will be My people.

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And they will no longer teach, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for all of them will know Me, frm the little one among them even to the great one among them, declares Jehovah, for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jer. 31:33,34) Concerning what you wrote before. This prophecy does not say no new covenant man will tell another new covenant man "walk by the Lord" or "obey the Lord". It only says there is no need for one to exhort the other to know the Lord.All are regenerated and born of the Holy Spirit. And ALL know the Lord God.The reason why this knowledge can now take place is because a great and terrible barrier has been REMOVED. And that WALL of separation is their reals sins which have incurred real guilt and separates them from God. " ... for I will forgive their iniquity; and their sin I will remember no more." You see man's sins make the unbridgeable barrier between themselves and the holy God - " .. Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

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But your iniquites have become a SEPARATION between you and your God, and your sins have have hidden his facefrom you so that He does no hear." (Isaiah 59:1,2) My SINS made a barrier between me and God.
My INIQUITES made a separation so that I cannot get a prayer through to Him.I cannot have a relationship of communion with God because my sins have made a separation. He is Holy. He is Righteous and cannot abide with sin.So one of the things that has happened in the new covenant is that the sins of the one separated have been judged in Jesus Christ on His cross. Now coming to Christ the believers sins are gone. They have been judged. God remembers them no more because they have been dealt with -"Lord Jesus. Do you remember what I did? God do you remember what kind of dirty person I was and what I did?"God would answer " I don't know what you are talking about. Your sins were judged in Christ. Your sins and your iniquites I will by no means remember any more. And I place my Son into your heart supernaturally."This has to be considered as the backround to Ephesians.Before I lose this writing on a technicality, I stop here. Your other comments may receive reply below.

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"Religious verbiage" ... "religious jargon" ... however you'd like to speak of the terms and phrases Paul uses, which I think are under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

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Econcomy, dispensation, head up, redemption, made alive, sonship .. I will continue to use good translations of the Greek words actually written by the Apostle Paul.

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I certainly have no reason to despise such phrases. And I let you use your kind of verbiage such as "life-style".

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The debate isn't about whether you can use the verbiage. That's your thing.My point is that you're restating what I have said in a longer fashion. I don't see the point of doing that in response to my posts.I haven't presented anything contrary to what is written in Ephesians or Paul's writings.Not sure what your issue is with what I've posted.

Continued: This is true, I think. However, when the new covenant comes along it is the Messiah's teaching that NO ONE is behaving such that they can be eternally justified before God.Yes, Aaron "behaved" beyond and over say Korah or Dathan and Ibiram. In the old covenant, sure, there are those obedient more so than others. I cannot dispute that and will not.But ... when Christ comes He teaches that NO one can be justified before God eternally outside of believing in the Son of God. And in His death and resurrection HIS "BEHAVING" so to speak, is accomplished for all the world for all time.Only the Son of God really ... really (as you wish to say) BEHAVED. Only the Son of God was absolute to the will of God. And in His death is a fulfillment of the all the types and shadows of the sacrifices under the law of Moses. " ... this [cup of wine] is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28) He is alluding to His approaching redemptive death on His cross. The covenant is the new covenant predicted by the prophet Jeremiah which I spoke to above.Again here in Luke: " This is My body which is being given for you; ... This cup is the NEW COVENANT established in My blood, which is being poured out for you." (See Luke 22:19-20) The believers among the Gentiles, who have obeyed the call of the Gospel, have been MADE ALIVE in Christ. They have been redeemed by His death. They have been re-born with the life of God through His resurrection.The Gentiles not yet believing need to hear the Gospel and need to believe into Christ. The Jews also need the same. If you wish to jump over to Romans then you have to notice that NO FLESH, but NOT FLESH ... shall be justified before God by works. You must read UP TO chapter 4 through chapters 1,2 and 3.ALL - religious and non-religious, Jew and Gentiles, are under God's condemnation in terms of eternity.

"Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who commits evil, both of Jew first and of Greek." (Rom. 1:10)

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"What then? Are we [Jews] better? Not at all! For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are ALL under sin, Even as it is written, There is none righteous, not even one ... etc. (Romans. 3:9,10)

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" ... out of works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; " (v.20)

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"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (v.23)

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Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood ... " (v.25)

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" ... indeed God is one, who will justify the circumsision out of faith and the uncircumcision through faith." (v.30) Paul says in Romans, concerning the Gospel which in Ephesians he says is of the unsearchable riches of Christ, that he is deptor to preach it to both Jews and Gentiles - "I am debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to foolish" (1:14) We will visit Romans 6-7 and probably 8 in another post.
This is a good lead in. And I absolutely hope to related to Ephesians which we are mainly discussing. By definition, the Christian has been redeemed and begotten of the Father.Adopted - yes. But a made alive within, and not simply transfered legally.It may be said that no word in Ephesians is explicitly to an unbeliever. I would not dispute that. That could be true.However, contrast is made between believer and unbeliever.
And contrast is made between the believers new life and their former life.The Gospel to the unbelievers is mentioned.
When these aspects are discussed the real truth seeker, I feel, should not feel uncomfortable. That is not if he is really hungry to know what Ephesians is about. [qs] Backsliding is a posibility. Yes.Paul even lost some fellow co-workers to backsliding.Paul's exhortation to keep one's conscience clear cautions of those who neglected this and became shipwrecked in the faith - " Holding faith and a good conscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith; Of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to satan that the may be disciplined not to blaspheme." (1 Tim. 1:19,20) Now I do not know for certain that people like Bart Erhman and Sam Harris were REALLY once Christian disciples. But it IS possible.And it is possible that these "Been There and Done That" X- evangelical Christians became shipwrecked in their faith mainly because failed to confess sins which they would no part from.For this reason it is crucial in shepherding new believers that they know that as the Holy Spirit gradually enlightens to them sins in their living, they should -1.) confess and bring those sins under the blood of Jesus.
2.) seek Christ's grace to enjoy His deliverance from those sins.Yes, indeed, there have always been and will continue to be SOME believers who make ship wreck of their faith.I spent some time myself in this condition. So I know it is possible to get into that state.But there is ALSO recovery from that statee back to one's first love through the precious blood of Christ.Now Paul had two co-workers - Hymenaeus and Alexander, who got so backslidden that they begin to blaspheme God.People like Bart Erhman and Sam Harris, making loads of money with their "Been There and Done That," X Christian books ALSO can be so backslidden so as to write blasphemous or near blasphemous things against Christ.The "choices" of some to chase some idol and turn their backs on Christ remains real. Anything that replaces God in a person's life is an idol - whether education, a reputation, prestiege, a best seller, a mega church of thousands of people, etc.John the Apostle dealt with such backsliders too. In his third epistle one such disciple was so desires to have a position among the brothers that he put people out of the local church and refused to receive John's letters. " I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not receive us. ... babbling against us with evil words; and not being satisfied with these, neither does he himself receive the brothers, and those intending to do so he forbids and casts out of the church." (3 John 9,10) This is very serious backsliding. This is clinging to a position and backsliding. I am so glad the New Testament is candid. Well then, you should be happy. However, I do not confirm that being made alive in Ephesians or walking by the Spirit in Galatians or Colossians can possibly be done apart from the miraculous intervention of God and Christ.Maybe you're not saying that. Maybe your way of writing here is just a little non-commital and muddy. Maybe you've learn to be politically savvy ... not quite saying anything too contraversial but being magnanimous.Me, I'm very easy to peg. My God is the man Jesus.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This is wrong. This is one of the things I disagreed with.Hardly anything in the behavior exhorted and taught in the whole book is possible apart from being made alive in Christ.If it were the case, Christ and His work would be unneccesary.Nothing in Ephesians even suggests that God can fulfill His eternal purpose outside of Christ as the sphere of His operation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

In Philippians the same apostle writes "For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for [His] good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13) Possible Pushback - "But that is not in Ephesians !" I think the concept is there too in Ephesians. The repentant sinners are made alive in Christ precisely for the purpose that God may begin to operate in them. In doing so He operates BOTH the willing and the working for His good pleasure.His good pleasure is central to the theme of the book of Ephesians. I think we already saw that. Possible Pushback "But we don't care about God's good pleasure. We only care about good works." But Ephesians is on God's good pleasure. And good works outside of Christ leaves the sinner without salvation. Possible Pushback - "But we don't care about salvation." I think to really study Ephesians you have to pay attention to the matter of God's salvation. And that would be an understatement.Now why do the believers have to hold fast to the living Christ as the Head ? It is because OUT FROM the Head His Body is enlivened and grows - " ... the Head, Christ, out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (4:15c.16) Possible Pushback - "But we don't care about the buildng up of the Body" Yes, but Paul does. Yes but Ephesians does. Yes but does. And yes the normal Christian disciple should care.The building up of the corporate dwelling place of God is the building of His living temple on the earth. It is His POEMA - His MASTERPIECE.The builded church is like God's Ninth (ie. Beethoven's Ninth symphony) - God's stroke of sheer divine genius.We (the saved) are His POEMA - His masterpiece. His creation displaying His wisdom and skill. Pushback again - "But we don't care about the church. Christianity is a mess." Christianity may be a mess. But God still says the church which Christ builds cannot be defeated by the gates of hell.Sure, ME TOO... in myself I only care about individual spirituality, individual good works. Christ in me cares for His Body, His living temple, His habitation of God in spirit. He is the Head of that living entity. All the things pertaining to that living Body flow out from Him.So to make us ALIVE with His resurrection presence is crucial. Paul has no commission from God to develop anything outside of the realm of Christ.The Body is also called a temple. Christ is the cornerstone of the temple. That is important. " Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone" (2:20) Studying Ephesians and making light of being made alive in Christ is really saying the cornerstone of God's building is not important.The living building has a living cornerstone. And in Him is all the building - "In whom all the building ..." (2:21) I am going to study Ephesians here with an eye on the priorities of the letter. Others can put in place their own priorities. I think we need to enter into the "spirit" of Paul in writing this prose. Here by "spirit" I mean the view or atmosphere.Only here do I use "spirit" now in this sense. Possible Pushback - "But that is so limiting, so restricting to only view this letter about Christ and His church." No it isn't. Paul discribes Christ in Ephesians like the very infinite dimensions of the universe. His love is EXHAUSTLESS and EXTESIVE and EXPANSIVE and ALL INCLUSIVE.Aren't you convinced ? I am convinced. Right here - "... that you ... may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ, that you [corporate you] may be filled unto all the fullness of God." (3:18,19) This is like Paul discribing the unsearchably rich Jesus Christ in terms of the infinite dimensions of the universe.How broad is "the breadth" ?
How long is "the length"?
How high is "the height"?
And How deep is "the depth"?The implication is that we cannot exhaust the expansiveness of this Person Jesus Christ. He is like the very size of the universe. The knowledge surpassing love of Christ will require eternity to learn.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.