Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 61 of 383 (687464)
01-10-2013 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jaywill
01-10-2013 4:17 PM


Dead and Alive
quote:
Hardly anything in the behavior exhorted and taught in the whole book is possible apart from being made alive in Christ.
If it were the case, Christ and His work would be unneccesary.
Nothing in Ephesians even suggests that God can fulfill His eternal purpose outside of Christ as the sphere of His operation.
I haven't suggested that the author is saying one can succeed apart from Christ. Refer back to the question that Phat asked.
Dead in sins is being apart from God/Christ, IOW not under his influence or protection. Alive in Christ/God means no longer apart from his influence or protection.
An alive-in-Christ-walking-with-the-spirit-born-again Christian is still capable of deciding not to do a good deed; but as I pointed out, according to Paul, that doesn't remove them from God's presence.
Being alive in Christ influences one to do good deeds, but I don't see that either author suggests that that influence forces one to do good deeds. The important word here is force.
The Holy Spirit supposedly guides. Galatians 5:16

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2013 4:17 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jaywill, posted 01-11-2013 10:13 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 62 of 383 (687493)
01-11-2013 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by jaywill
01-10-2013 5:12 PM


Re: The Christ of Ephesians
quote:
In Philippians the same apostle writes "For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for [His] good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13)
This verse isn't saying that God goes in and rewires the believers brain so that the believer is no longer capable of choosing wrong or failing to help others.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
(1) It is not God who acts for us. He leads us to "will and to do." It is not said that he wills and does for us, and it cannot be. It is man that "wills and does" - though God so influences him that he does it.
I look at it as God helping to strengthen the believer's good inclination (yetzer tov).
Jewish Beliefs about Human Nature
According to this view, the yetzer tov is the moral conscience that reminds a person of God's law when one considers a specific action or choice. The yetzer ra is the impulse to satisfy one's own needs and desires. There is nothing intrinsically evil about the yetzer ra, as it was created by God and is natural to humankind. It is also what drives us to good things such as eating, drinking, having a family, and making a living. However, it can easily lead to sin when not kept in check by the yetzer tov.
IMO, right choices strengthen the good inclination.
Introducing Paul's writings to apathetic Christians would be a good way to help them persevere and get back on track. Get back to listening to their good inclination.
Nothing I've presented argues for the idea that Ephesians says that one has salvation through good behavior. Like I said before, the letter is for believers. They are already saved.
Your pushback possibilities are off track. You're just creating your own opposition. This debate isn't about what we care about, it is about what Ephesians actual says.
My position is that it is a summary of Paul's theology presented in his letters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2013 5:12 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 63 of 383 (687495)
01-11-2013 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by purpledawn
01-10-2013 7:34 PM


Re: Dead and Alive
I haven't suggested that the author is saying one can succeed apart from Christ. Refer back to the question that Phat asked.
Dead in sins is being apart from God/Christ, IOW not under his influence or protection. Alive in Christ/God means no longer apart from his influence or protection.
I agree with this. But I would choose to express being alive in Christ as having the living available Christ living within.
You see, the Christian may pray for his or her children, or a friend. According to that petition God may offer some protection to that prayed for person even though that person is not made alive in Christ.
A Christian may petition God for some unbeliever, saying "Lord Jesus do stir in them and compel them to confess their sins and pick up a Holy Bible." Now the Holy Spirit may enfluence such a prayed for person somehow, yet that person is not yet made alive in Christ.
So under some protection of God and under some enfluence of God may not be made alive in God. But for certain the person made alive in the new birth is under that enfluence.
Some Christian mother or grandmother or anyone may be praying hard for God to protect and enfluence in life some wayward loved one, OR enemy for that matter.
God hears those petitions and will offer some protection and channeling of that unbeliever into salvation. If not, it is hard for any of us to be saved.
My point - an unregenerated person may benefit from some enfluence of God and Christ or even some prompting of the Holy Spirit. Yet they are not yet made alive through the new birth.
An alive-in-Christ-walking-with-the-spirit-born-again Christian is still capable of deciding not to do a good deed;
True indeed. Paul's letter is to address such abnormal Christian experience. His Ephesian letter is to bring them into normality in Christ.
But I would also add that a made alive person in Christ may be use to being naturally good. And he mistakes his natural good behavior for walking by the Spirit. This ethically good person who depends on the goodness in himself rather than on Christ, must learn to discern between his own natural good living and walking by the Spirit.
I am crucified with Christ means that the good "I" has been crucified as well as the bad "I" has been crucified.
Paul was quite a good, ethical, zealous for the law of Moses religious man as he was persecuting the Christians. He probably had few if any vices. When he met Jesus Christ he learned more and more that God rejected his goodness from himself.
Paul pioneered the way to show us that God rejected all of what we can do in our flesh. That is not only our bad flesh but also our good flesh.
"I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave HImself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ has died for nothing." (Gal. 2:20,21)
It is Christ who lives in Paul. It is not the good Paul. Much less it is the bad Paul. It is not the good Paul but Paul crucified. And Christ lives in Paul in a mingled and blended way of His availability.
Paul had NO CONFIDENCE in the goodness which he could muster up in his flesh. And he taught the same to his co-workers -
"For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh ..." (Phil. 3:3)
We have in another discussion talked about some of the battles of Joshua in the land of Canaan. Some complain of genocide. Certain tribes God commanded to be dealt with most severely like the Amalekites, like the Medianites, like Jericho.
There is a New Testament application to this slaughter. Sometimes we do not realize the subtlety of the enemy within. God sees. But we do not see.
I tell you that our eye would pity. God says "The whole thing must go to the cross. You must deny yourself. You must turn to Christ and not preserve the pitied for self."
This is a big subject. My point is that not only our wicked badbnesss can oppose God. Even our goodness which is natural can stand against God. He knew that before we were even born. And supernaturally He has provided a way that we can be crucifed WITH Christ, buried with Christ, and raised to walk in newnesss of life with and in Christ.
but as I pointed out, according to Paul, that doesn't remove them from God's presence.
Being alive in Christ influences one to do good deeds,
Being made alive in Christ is to train man to LIVE Christ. Or in other words the living Christ can live again on the earth THROUGH the one who has been made alive.
There is nothing sentimental about this. This is the real and living Christ who is available in the form of "a life giving Spirit" living again on the earth in a blended way with the believer.
Now this is a learning experience of the whole life. It is not mastered quickly. But Paul prayed that the believers would be strengthened into the inner man -
" That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith (3:16,17)
Ie. "You have touched your new inner man. You have touched Christ living deep within you. You need to be strengthened to abide in that realm. You need the Holy Spirit to draw you into that inner man so that you live there and walk daily in that sphere.
As you log more and more time energized into your inner man the result will be that Christ will settle down in your soul. Christ will migrate from your inner man into your mind. Christ will permeate your imagination. Christ will permeat your emotion. Christ will move out to saturate your will. Christ will have authority over your soul because He will make His home there."
Eventully Christ will burst out into your physical body. Thus we have -
1.) Regeneration
2.) Transformation
3.) Transfiguration
That is - regeneration of the human spirit.
Followed by a life long transformation in the human soul.
Followed by a final transfiguration of the body.
And we also have building up together into the corporte dwelling place of God in spirit as the living temple. We need to be in a proper local church like the church in Ephesus.
but I don't see that either author suggests that that influence forces one to do good deeds. The important word here is force.
You are right. God does not usurp the human will in this matter.
The symbol of the Holy Spirit in the Gospels is a DOVE. This is a shy animal who is easily brushed off.
The Holy Spirit as a gentle dove will flutter within. The slightest resistance from the Christian may cause Him to withdraw His enfluence temporarily. Christ is LORD. But Christ is a GENTLEMAN.
In this age Christ will not usurp your will. He will not FORCE or COERCE you to go along with Him and His Father.
You are quite correct. And we should be careful of religious presentations which portray the Holy Spirit as coercing or forcing people against their will to do this or that. Some branches of Pentacostalism, in their enthusiasm, may give the impression that the Holy Spirit has FORCED a person to behave in a certain way.
This is highly suspect. So we love them. But we also caution such. In this age of grace the Dove of the Holy Spirit will lead you and prompt you to go along with the divine nature. But He will not usurp your human will.
I will not go into this now. And I am still a learner. But another side of this Christian walk is that excessive PASSIVITY on the part of the believer can ALSO be a pitfall.
So on one hand God will not force you. But on the other side it is dangerous to be overly PASSIVE - "Well. if God wants me to do this then He is going to have to do it. I am just going to sit here and wait."
Some unbelievers will not be saved by Christ because they passively would not turn to Christ in prayer or in belief or in repentance.
C.S. Lewis was estute to say that when Satan send errors into the world concerning God, he usually sends them in opposite extremes. This way he will catch people in one problem or the opposite one. In this case the pitfall is expecting God to COERCE and FORCE your will and on the other hand excessive PASSIVITY that will not come forward to God - come forward to Christ.
The Holy Spirit supposedly guides. Galatians 5:16
And such guidance expands, deepens, and widens.
With the brand new Christian it is often like the mother training her child. One of the first words the child will learn is the word "No."
A brand new believer in Christ will probably receive guidance from the Holy Spirit in terms of Him saying a lot of "No."
Ie. "What you are about to say .. No, this time don't say that."
"Where you are about to go ... No, this time do not go there."
"No. Don't do that."
"No. Don't think that."
"No. Don't speak that."
The new believer will be guided early by many "Nos" to train them gently to take another course from what they are used to doing. As we become strengthened into the inner man, this guidance will become more and more fine.
The believe has to seek others who are experiencing the same thing. And he can be built up in the Body of Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by purpledawn, posted 01-10-2013 7:34 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


(1)
Message 64 of 383 (687548)
01-12-2013 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jaywill
01-04-2013 9:17 AM


Re: Ephesians 1:3-14
This opening portion of praise in the beginning of Ephesians is truly unique and heavenly. I have read through some of the posts and I cannot imagine any motivation for someone to 'forge' something like this. I don't think someone will a low morality could do it.
The section speaks of blessing God on account of His blessing to us. 'To us' here is 'to the believers'. Ephesians is written 'to the saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus.' As such in might not be easy for some to relate to this mutual, bi-directional blessing. But for those who believe, who have experienced God's blessing, this section is moving. It is packed with consolation and challenge.
I read a note somehwere that the word 'spiritual' (used in verse 3) always implies the working of the Holy Spirit when used in the New Testament. I agree with this.
God has not just blessed with with a lot of things, but with Himself. The Holy Spirit is God reaching man. He coming is called 'the blessing of Abraham' in Gal 3:14. And if this is so, God always intended to bless man with Himself.
In verse 14 the Holy Spirit is called 'the foretaste of our inheritance'. We do have a taste of the divine blessings mentioned right now and a more full inheritance planned for our future.
I have just scratched the surface of this portion and I am only up to verse 3.
Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2013 9:17 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 01-13-2013 7:49 AM Richh has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 65 of 383 (687570)
01-13-2013 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Richh
01-12-2013 6:15 AM


Re: Ephesians 1:3-14
God has not just blessed with with a lot of things, but with Himself. The Holy Spirit is God reaching man. He coming is called 'the blessing of Abraham' in Gal 3:14. And if this is so, God always intended to bless man with Himself.
Richh,
How do you feel about the whole word "bless"?
I find that this is an easy word to take for granted. I use to hear that we should "bless" our food at dinner. So when I read about God blessing or we blessing God it had that kind of ceremonial taste to it.
Do you believe there is any operational result to one blessing another? I believe whatever God does must have impact. But I'd like you to explain the "blessings" of Ephesians chapter 1 a bit.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Richh, posted 01-12-2013 6:15 AM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Richh, posted 01-16-2013 11:19 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 66 of 383 (687572)
01-13-2013 8:41 AM


God's Operation IN Christ
Throughout chatper one and on we see that Christ as a Person is a realm which man can ENTER. For so many things occur in Christ as a enterable realm:
1.) Verse 1 - The sanctified ones, the ones made holy and called saints are in Christ. - ... to the sains who are in Ephesis and are faithful in Christ Jesus.
( I think only the Chester Beaty manscript mentions Ephesus )
2.) Verse 2 - The believers receive blessing in the sphere of Christ.
" ... has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ."
3.) Verse 3 - Though this happened before the believers existed, they were chosen in the realm of Christ -
"Even as we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ..."
4.) Verse 6 - The believers are "graced" or receive God's grace in the realm of Christ - " ... He graced us in the Beloved [Christ]"
5.) Verse 7 - In the realm of Christ the believers have redemption and the forgiveness of sins - "In whom [Christ] we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses ..."
6.) Verse 10 - God's operation to head up all things in the universe is to occur in Christ - " Unto the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him."
7.) Verse 11 - In the realm of Christ human beings a designated as God's inheritance, God's treasured possession - "In whom also we were designated as an inheritance ..."
8.) Verse 12 - The believers who pioneer into the new age will have FIRST hoped in Christ - " ... we should be to the praise of His glory who have first hoped in Christ."
9.) Verse 13 - In the realm of Christ they first heard the word of truth - " In Whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing ..."
10.) Verse 13 - In Christ the believers were sealed by the Holy Spirit - " ... in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise ..."
11.) Verse 19 - God's mighty power toward the believers from Christ's resurrection operated in Christ too - " ... what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead ..."
These verses in chapter one show that Christ is the sphere and realm in which God carries out so much of His eternal economy.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Richh, posted 01-13-2013 9:12 PM jaywill has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 383 (687575)
01-13-2013 11:38 AM


Ephesians 4
AS we continue in our study of Ephesians...
NIV writes:
Eph 4:1-5:1--As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.(*yes,jar...works *)2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit- just as you were called to one hope when you were called- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (*God is over us,through us and in us*)
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. ( *Grace was given...we didn't earn it*)8 This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."
9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, (*definitely something we do *)which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new (*definitely through Grace*) in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
This chapter shows me that works and grace go hand in hand. We are taught to do certain things ourselves and are also taught that some things were and are done for us by the Holy Spirit. Comments?
( My Comments are indicated by *....*)
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 01-22-2013 11:51 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 129 by Richh, posted 01-29-2013 11:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 68 of 383 (687588)
01-13-2013 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jaywill
01-13-2013 8:41 AM


Re: God's Operation IN Christ
Throughout chapter one and on we see that Christ as a Person is a realm which man can ENTER. For so many things occur in Christ as an enterable realm:
I had noticed these phrases in the verses in Ephesians 1 too.
(Apologies to Phat - I am only up to chapter 1.)
I had a count of 8 occurrences of 'in Christ', etc., excluding verse 1, but I missed verse 6. Some commentators also mention that the phrase in verse 9 'which He purposed in Himself' could be translated 'which He purposed in Him'. That could be a 12th occurrence in this short section.
I agree - in our experience Christ is a realm, and in our experience sometimes we are 'in' Christ experientially and sometime out.
Furthermore, I think phrases like 'He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world' show something above and beyond our daily experience, but perhaps bearing on our 'future' behavior, c.f. Eph 2:10, 'For we are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works...'
Somehow it is 'in Christ', not anywhere else, that God can create His masterpiece, His 'poiema', as witnessed by these many occurrences of this phrase here.
I think the words of this hymn express it well:
All I have in Adam is but sin and death,
I in Christ inherit life and righteousness;
When in flesh abiding, Adam I express,
But when in the spirit Christ is manifest.
Witness Lee & Watchman Nee Hymns
Edited by Richh, : No reason given.
Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jaywill, posted 01-13-2013 8:41 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-15-2013 12:28 PM Richh has replied
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 1:11 PM Richh has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 69 of 383 (687689)
01-15-2013 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Richh
01-13-2013 9:12 PM


Re: God's Operation IN Christ
Richh,
Upon more careful cnsideration, I think some of my examples were about "in Christ" but not that much about man ENTERING into Christ.
IE. God purposed "In Him" is really about God purposing in Christ more than man entering in.
Is that right with some of the examples I gave?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Richh, posted 01-13-2013 9:12 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Richh, posted 01-15-2013 10:47 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 383 (687696)
01-15-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Richh
01-13-2013 9:12 PM


Re: God's Operation IN Christ
Furthermore, I think phrases like 'He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world' show something above and beyond our daily experience, but perhaps bearing on our 'future' behavior, c.f. Eph 2:10, 'For we are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works...'
I might add that walking "In Christ" means walking "In the Spirit" and that future promise of such a result can only be enhance through present behavior. In other words, focus on the present communion in order to also hope and abide in a future communion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Richh, posted 01-13-2013 9:12 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Richh, posted 01-15-2013 11:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 71 of 383 (687728)
01-15-2013 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jaywill
01-15-2013 12:28 PM


Re: God's Operation IN Christ
IE. God purposed "In Him" is really abut God purposing in Christ more than man entering in.
There is definitely an aspect of our being in Christ, but maybe what you speak of is like the counsel of the Godhead in Gen 1:26, 'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...'
Perhaps that is why some translators translate 'purposed in Himself'.
My unscientific comparison of about 20 translations showed a slight edge to phrases like 'purposed in Him', but it was pretty evenly divided.
Perhaps in a later post I will list them all out. It is an interesting study, and highlights that it is not that easy to understand or translate the Bible. (But it is worth the effort.)
Here are a few:
ASV - 'which he purposed in him'
DBY - 'which he purposed in himself'
DRA - 'which he hath purposed in him'
ESV - 'which he set forth in Christ'
GNV - 'which he had purposed in him'
KJV - 'which he hath purposed in himself'
NAB - 'that he set forth in him'
NAS - 'which He purposed in Him'
NIV - 'which he purposed in Christ'
TNT - 'purposed the same in hym silfe'
WEB - 'which he hath purposed in himself'
YLT - 'that He purposed in Himself'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-15-2013 12:28 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 72 of 383 (687730)
01-15-2013 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
01-15-2013 1:11 PM


Re: God's Operation IN Christ
I might add that walking "In Christ" means walking "In the Spirit" and that future promise of such a result can only be enhanced through present behavior. In other words, focus on the present communion in order to also hope and abide in a future communion.
Very true. 'Present communion' sanctifies us. That reminds me of I John 3:2-3 and Romans 5:3-4.
I John 3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is. And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure.
Romans 5:3-4 ...knowing that tribulation produces endurance; And endurance, approvedness; and approvedness, hope...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


(1)
Message 73 of 383 (687819)
01-16-2013 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jaywill
01-13-2013 7:49 AM


Re: Ephesians 1:3-14
I find that this is an easy word to take for granted. I use to hear that we should "bless" our food at dinner. So when I read about God blessing or we blessing God it had that kind of ceremonial taste to it.
Do you believe there is any operational result to one blessing another? I believe whatever God does must have impact. But I'd like you to explain the "blessings" of Ephesians chapter 1 a bit.
I don't think there is anything ceremonial in these verses in Ephesians 1. It begins with Paul's (and our) response and reaction to such a marvelous set of blessings - 'Blessed be the God and Father...' Some versions translate it to 'Praise be to God...' When someone has some realization of the blessings, 'how can we restrain our praise'.
Then the blessings which motivated this praise are in no way ceremonial.
I read this summary: ‘The Father in His eternal love has chosen us to holiness (v. 4), ordained us to sonship (v. 5), bestowed grace on us in the Beloved (v. 6). In the Son we have redemption, which is forgiveness, according to the riches of His grace (v. 7), knowledge of the mystery of His will (v. 8-9) and inheritance under Him, the One Head (v. 10-12). Through the Spirit we are sealed by hearing and believing the word of salvation (v. 13), by receiving the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the purchased possession (v. 14).'
I'd like to call your attention to the words on purpose mentioned in this portion. One of the blessings bestowed on Paul (and us) is that God made 'known to us the mystery of His will.' It says He predestinated us 'unto sonship ... according to the good pleasure of His will.' Furthermore His making known to us the mystery of His will was 'according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself' (or in Him).
It is a great blessing to know the mystery of God's will. It is not completely detailed in this 'eulogy'. However, I believe it is revealed in many facets in the book of Ephesians. If we desire to please God, we need to know His will.
Can you make a statement of what the will of God is?
In this book it is not just personal. It is 'according to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord,' (Eph 3:11).
Edited by Richh, : Adding more...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 01-13-2013 7:49 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jaywill, posted 01-18-2013 9:09 AM Richh has replied
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-18-2013 9:38 AM Richh has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 383 (687851)
01-17-2013 8:11 AM


Eph 5:1-5
NIV writes:
5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a man is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
  • Imitating God is imitating Jesus. Walking in the Spirit and not the flesh.
  • Your conscience should let you know when you get out of hand.
  • People who try and do their best and who love God will usually walk In The Spirit. Immoral people don't even understand how they are repping the wrong spirit and are corrupted.

  •   
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1940 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 75 of 383 (687978)
    01-18-2013 9:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Richh
    01-16-2013 11:19 PM


    Re: Ephesians 1:3-14
    It is a great blessing to know the mystery of God's will. It is not completely detailed in this 'eulogy'. However, I believe it is revealed in many facets in the book of Ephesians. If we desire to please God, we need to know His will.
    Richh,
    This is what I am getting at in the matter of blessing.
    Take the example of the creation story. God created man and THEN blessed him.
    Genesis 1:27,28 - And God created man in His own image ... And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful ... etc."
    If God had not blessed man in verse 28 what would be the difference?
    Is the command to be fruitful and fill the earth PART of the blessing.
    My suspicion is that for God to speak well or bless someone is not idle. It must have impact. It must be operational. There must be some power and authority in the well speaking of God which matters.
    Psalm 33:9 "For He [God] spoke, and it was; He commanded, and it stood."
    We see that God also calls things not being as being - "God ... calls the things not being as being." (Rom. 4:17)
    The speaking of God must have some tremendous impact of causation, perhaps. If He blesses, if He pronounces blessing, I wonder if something of cause and effect is set in motion.
    It is hard for me to get beyond my old religious notion of blessing. Ie we bless the food at the table in saying grace. Or something like that.
    For God to bless, I genuinely wonder, must set something in motion. His well speaking matters.
    By the same token we have man blessing God in Ephesians. But it is not any man. It is the man redeemed and recovered for His will. This saved man blesses -
    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us ..."
    This is a mutual matter. This is the saved human beings returning a blessing to the God who has blessed them. This is the redeemed mutually blessing the Blesser Who has previously spoken well of them.
    Does God require our blessing?
    Does man's blessing of God set anything in motion or have any impact ?
    I muse on the deeper significance of this, if there is any. Share more of your insight if you have any.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Richh, posted 01-16-2013 11:19 PM Richh has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 91 by Richh, posted 01-22-2013 7:31 PM jaywill has replied
     Message 93 by Richh, posted 01-22-2013 11:14 PM jaywill has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024