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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 495 of 503 (688238)
01-21-2013 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by Theodoric
01-18-2013 9:21 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues -- challenged
? A young earth creationist believes in a young earth. I don't.
I believe the layers currently aged at about 600 million and younger are actually less than 6500 years old because these layers show fossils of life-forms. I agree older layers are older than 6500 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Theodoric, posted 01-18-2013 9:21 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 496 of 503 (688240)
01-21-2013 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 491 by Granny Magda
01-18-2013 11:37 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
That's not an example of Occam's Razor. You have no way of knowing that marine reptiles would out-compete cetaceans. Perhaps the mammals would out-compete the reptiles, you can only guess. And your guesses on this topic do not have the greatest track record so far.
That's your opinion. If you were more aware of the lack of evidence for the basic mechanisms of evolution, you would not be so confident that sudden appearances of new species were caused by evolving. Evolutionists have scanty evidence for the theory behind new additional functional novel genes being created, as bacteria moved from a simple organism to organisms containing many thousands of genes. In this respect please read this thread, from page 15.
EvC Forum: How novel features evolve #2
You have to prove a gene was duplicated (rather than two identical genes - dual function - and one was lost). Then you have to prove that gene is protein coding and developed a new unique function that adds fitness to the organism. Without that proof evolution is just a fantasy, with that proof its an outside possibility that something could have evolved once.
Occam's Razor favours the explanation with the fewest assumptions. Your series of tortured excuses and guess is far from that
Lol, the assumption of evolution involves a 1000 gene (or even 1 gene) organism becoming a 22000 gene organism through no observable process. In addition to wade through millions of extinct fossils to find one that appears like a transition, proves nothing. All it proves is that there have been millions of extinctions on earth, that is the observable fact. It so easy to look at one fossil that has some matching features to a modern species and claim a "transitionary fossil" but you would need a whole series of changes in a definitely dated sequence to make that claim. No-one has made such a proven claim in this thread, its guess work.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Granny Magda, posted 01-18-2013 11:37 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 497 of 503 (688241)
01-21-2013 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by RAZD
01-18-2013 12:58 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues -- challenged
Will get there one day, but am a little put off by your requirements for posting evidence. If you dropped your requirements to the kind of discussions that are acceptable on this thread (publications, wikipedia, deductive reasoning) then that would be easier. I find the scientific community is unfortunately biased through accepting the theory of evolution too early when recent DNA sequencing is not providing enough support for the hypothesis of evolution. (ie increased DNA complexity of new and uniquely functional active coding genes within an organism is not observed to add fitness)
Due to this bias I cannot be restricted to publications of the scientific community only.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 498 of 503 (688246)
01-21-2013 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by Dr Adequate
01-17-2013 6:59 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Of course they're mammals and have names. Dorudon, Pakicetus, Ambulocetus, Kutchicetus, Protocetus, Maiacetus
To me those represent a number of extinct animals. If you have many animals, then a great extinction, then a few modern animals, it is easy to find a range of extinct species for every range of modern species because not many survived the extinctions. To prove a phylogenetic tree, you would have to sequence them according to subtle changes leading up to modern species, and to have the sequence radiometrically dated to reveal relative ageing of the fossils.
Its that detailed and dated sequencing of fossils that is missing, where it is biologically obvious that there was an ancestor similar to the sperm whale recently, and then its predecessor is biologically obvious too, leading backwards in time, all dated properly. Without that, its guesswork based on a biased view of extinct fauna.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-17-2013 6:59 AM Dr Adequate has replied

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 499 of 503 (688247)
01-21-2013 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 493 by herebedragons
01-19-2013 8:43 PM


Re: Geological column and the flood
Now they seem to think that this disproves conventional geology and provides support to flood geology. But if the geological layers were laid down in a world wide flood, wouldn't the layers be much more uniform and evenly distributed throughout the world? Doesn't the fact that the different strata are dispersed throughout the world and not distributed evenly actually disprove flood geology rather than support it?
My view is not standard flood geology, but the assumption in the common view and my view, is that there is no uniformity. The lack of uniformity is more core to our beliefs than evolutionists because of our belief that most fauna/flora were in simultaneous existence.
Thus there will be a patch of so-called Permian fossils, then a thousand km away a patch of so-called Carboniferous fossils , then 1000 km away a patch of Jurassic fossils. This fits in with our belief they existed simultaneously. There is however an assumption that the lowest lying got covered by flood sediment first, ie a general trend of bottom feeders, followed by fish, followed by amphibians, followed by land animals.
My own belief is more consistent with the geologic column, but even so I believe there were huge overlaps of say Triassic fauna living simultaneously with Eocene fauna, but in vastly separated environments (dry and hot - cold and wet, even today there is little overlap of the fauna from those two climates). The same applies to Eocene marine fauna, certain fossils will be predetermined to be Eocene fossils according to the standard evolutionary model, but could have easily been early Jurassic, because of misunderstandings about compressed timeframes, I'm referring here to say the Egyptian "Eocene" limestone which could have actually existed during the early age of the dinosaurs.
I personally believe the Permian and the Carboniferous are not necessarily sequential either, a portion of the Permian just representing flood fossils that washed over the in situ carboniferous fossils. I'm still trying to investigate whether generally the late Permian fossils were more disarticulated revealing catastrophe, rather than the more intact carboniferous fossils which were easily fossilised swamp dwellers.
Because Permian fossils are either found on their own, or above Carboniferous fossils, but not below, its so easy to assume they were a later period, the simultaneous option is not often considered.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

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 Message 493 by herebedragons, posted 01-19-2013 8:43 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 502 of 503 (688260)
01-21-2013 11:43 AM


Thanks everyone, I really enjoyed the discussion. As Granny Magda pointed out so eloquently, my theory is adjusting as I go along. I believe its gaining in strength even if those participating in the thread feel the theory is weak because it is developing.
The truth is the PT boundary was a dramatic event with all the ingredients for a worldwide flood. There was the melting ice caps, melting glaciation, huge worldwide sediment movements, enlarging of Pangea (low-lying landmass peaked in area, oceans were compressed). There is a major proven transgression and regression then at the PT boundary. Some tried to brush off the evidence I presented of this major sediment movement across the world, but anyone researching this will see endless evidence of unprecedented sedimentation at the PT boundary, because this is proven fact, no matter the cause.
I feel the only good points disputing the flood hypothesis presented, are that
1) the worldwide mass movements of sedimentation could have been a result of loss of vegetation and not flooding, erosion occurring after the worldwide loss of vegetation. This I believe is an alternative valid evidence based hypothesis worth considering
2) the Appalachians were apparently too high to be covered by excess melt waters. I asked for proof that they were that high, the alternative is that they were covered by eroding floodwaters during the flood, and only subsequently rose to current heights. I never saw the supporting geological evidence for high Appalachians in the pre-boundary era.
Other discussions were more related to peripherary topics, there was no conclusive evidence presented that any large terrestrial animals have a lot more than 28 alelles in areas of the genome where mutation rates are normal. I feel generally the reduced number of alleles found in "ark animals" supports the ark theory. Neither was conclusive evidence presented of any sort of transitional fossils outside of evolutionary assumptions, although the thread ended too quickly to end that discussion.
Neither did anyone challenge my premise that changing conditions regularly cause niche environments to dominate, and the alternative conclusion that the new dominant fauna/flora evolved; is based on as yet unproven processes (fairytale speculation regarding some aspects of novel genes), and on so-called "transitional fossils" that are really imaginative speculation concerning numerous fossils of extinct species.
Dr A presented the usual "scientists say" comment regarding transitional fossils without presenting any evidence or links for his confident conclusion that whales have a history of developing transitional fossils accurately sequenced according to confirmed dates. Anything less evidence based is speculation, using evolution to prove evolution - ie circular reasoning.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

  
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