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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2659 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 241 of 1498 (688382)
01-22-2013 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by NoNukes
01-22-2013 7:51 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
Wrong. The patterns are there. You can deny their interpretation, but they are there.
Could you show me your workings please? Any links showing how academics reach their conclusions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by NoNukes, posted 01-22-2013 7:51 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by NoNukes, posted 01-22-2013 9:01 AM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 246 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-22-2013 9:19 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 1498 (688385)
01-22-2013 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 8:38 AM


I do admit when I get things incorrect and appreciate a good logical answer.
So why did you continue to argue the point?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:38 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 243 of 1498 (688386)
01-22-2013 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 8:43 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
Could you show me your workings please? Any links showing how academics reach their conclusions?
Do we have a disagreement that the patterns relating genetic differences to functionality exist or is our disagreement merely that you think the patterns have an explanation other than evolution?
Quite frankly, this is all beside the point which is this. I do not believe you've made a meaningful year long search for evidence that evolutionary processes can produce new functionality because you are not capable of recognizing such evidence.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:43 AM mindspawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 10:27 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 244 of 1498 (688387)
01-22-2013 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 7:45 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
Let's stick to facts. If both forms of dating are out by a factor of 12 , they would remain in accord.
Yeah, let's stick to facts, rather than your fantasies. You have no evidence that carbon dating is "out by a factor of 12" but if ...
Well, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
Again, you are using mocking wording without backing up your statements:
http://www.madsci.org/...chives/2004-02/1075764676.Bt.r.html
Plants will increase photosynthesis under increased pressures, absorbing more carbon 14 in the process, and absorb less under low pressures. Thus it is based on assumed consistency of air pressures. Carbon 14 dating is also based on assumed consistency in atmospheric carbon production.
I will continue to mock you until you make the least effort to find out what you're talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 7:45 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 245 of 1498 (688388)
01-22-2013 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 7:48 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
More hogwash, this is a science forum. I appreciate a well written rebuttal.
Presumably when you wrote that you thought it was a reply to my post.
I cannot imagine why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 7:48 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 246 of 1498 (688389)
01-22-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 8:43 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
Could you show me your workings please?
What a bizarre non sequitur. It's like you've heard an educated person use that phrase, but didn't understand what it meant.
Any links showing how academics reach their conclusions?
It's called the scientific method. Feel free to look it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:43 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 247 of 1498 (688392)
01-22-2013 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 5:43 AM


varves
Starting with varves, its the study of modern varve creation that reveals to us how they were created historically, and these layers that look like "annual" often are not annual layers (they look like varves but are not).
See Message 5:
quote:
Lake Suigetsu Varves
Just a moment... (3)
quote:
A 75-m long continuous core (Lab code, SG) and four short piston cores were taken from the center of the lake in 1991 and 1993. The sediments are laminated in nearly the entire core sections and are dominated by darkcolored clay with white layers resulting from spring-season diatom growth. The seasonal changes in the depositions are preserved in the clay as thin laminations or varves. ...
Note that annual varves run for a period of 29,100 years (from 8,830 back to 37,930 cal yr B.P if correctly aligned with the tree chronology), and that this alone is several times older than any YEC model for the age of the earth. ...
These varves are formed by alternate seasonal deposition: diatoms in the spring and clay the rest of the year.
The clay deposition is fairly constant year round, so it is the diatom layers that mark the annual season of growth.
Due to there being many many places in which varve-like patterns are formed, just according to the sheer number, its easy to find one "varve pattern" that has a vaguely correlating pattern to other dating methods. If they were rarer, then the "correlation" would have more significance. ...
Curiously, I am not concerned with the many different kinds of varves, some of which would be problematic for dating, but I am concerned with this one specific type formed by annual layers of diatom shells.
Note that clay settles slowly and diatoms settle fast.
... If you choose spring tide "varves" (true varves are annual, not monthly) you will be out by a factor of 12, and you will achieve an automatic close match with carbon dating, which can also be out by a factor of 12.
These varves are in a lake and have nothing to do with tides and seashells. Your discussion of seashell varves is irrelevant to the actual varves in question.
Carbon dating is only known to be accurate over about 2500 years, and the dates are established according to current carbon atmospheric content. ...
A patently false statement. See Message 4 for this correlation of annual tree rings with 14C/12C ratios:
quote:
Thus cosmic ray activity produces a "Carbon-14 environment" in the atmosphere, where Carbon-14 is being produced or replenished while also being removed by radioactive decay due to a short half-life. This results is a variable but fairly stable proportion of atmospheric Carbon-14 for absorption from the atmosphere by plants during photosynthesis in the proportions of C-12 and C-14 existing in the atmosphere at the time.
The level of Carbon-14 has not been constant in the past, as it is known to vary with the amount of cosmic ray bombardment and climate change. Carbon-14 has a half-life of 5730 years and this can be used to calculate an apparent "C-14 age" from the proportion of C-14 to C-12 in an organic sample (that derives its carbon from the atmosphere) and this "date" can be checked against known dates to determine the amount of C-14 that was in the atmosphere:
(Image based on calibration curvefrom Wikipedia(2) - Both images are in the public domain.)
Note that the "C-14 age" is really a measurement of the actual ratio of C-14 to C-12 isotopes in the sample, and a comparison of that to modern day proportions.
This 14C/12C ratio declines along an exponential curve as predicted by radioactive decay, and this data correlates with the linear curve of tree rings with age.
This curve is extended further to cover the current limits of dendrochronology (ibid):
quote:
These calibration curves have been extended now to the limits of Carbon-14 dating, but it is also of interest to look at just the Carbon-14 calibration curve for dendrochronology - the results of matching tree-rings to Carbon-14 levels and their implied "C-14 age":
404 Page not found (9)
quote:

This means we can look at the "C-14 age" as a measurement of the Carbon-14 actually remaining in the samples from what was absorbed from the atmosphere at the time that the tree-rings were formed and note the following:
  • If there were numerous errors in the tree-ring data caused by false rings (as proposed by Dr. Don Batten), then this would show up as a steep rising "C-14 age" that would be much younger than the recorded tree-ring age. This is not the case.
  • The false rings would also have to be perfectly matched for each of the species used for the overall dendrochronology ages or the "C-14 age" for each one would be different and the line of calibration would be extremely blurred. This is not the case.
  • The age derived from Carbon-14 analysis is consistently younger than the actual age measured by the numerous tree-ring chronologies in pre-historical times, meaning that C-14 dating underestimates the ages of objects.

It only makes sense that a flood would have wiped out all vegetation,
So it would have necessarily interrupted the dendrochronology ... which extends to over 12,400 years ago in a continuous uninterrupted sequence.
... thereby artificially increasing the proportion of carbon in the atmosphere for the first centuries after the flood. ...
... but not changing the ratio of 14C/12C. All that carbon would still have the same 14C/12C from when the plants died, the 14C would not decay any faster.
... Most civilizations report an impact event around 3500bp (Kohl's revised dating) which would have also destroyed vegetation thus kept the carbon ratio high. Thus fossils and artifacts are found with more carbon than expected, and dates can be vastly overestimated due to being based on current atmospheric pressures rather than the fluctuating pressures of the past.
You will note that there is no spike or discontinuity in the general slope of the line in the above graph at circa 1500BC.
I could not find any relevant link when I googled Kohl's revised dating so I will need more information on this please.
But I note that tree rings in the Sierra Nevada, tree rings in Germany, tree rings in Ireland and lake varves in Japan are not affected.
But I will also note that volcanic eruptions were cross correlated with the Lake Suigetsu varves (see Message 21):
quote:

You will note that there is no spike or discontinuity in the general slope of the line in the above graph at circa 1500BC, nor is there a significant change in 14C/12C for each of the volcanic ash deposits noted.
This is because the ratio is not changed by the amount of carbon -- both 14C and 12C are increased when vegetation is decomposed\burned etc.
... Thus fossils and artifacts are found with more carbon than expected, and dates can be vastly overestimated due to being based on current atmospheric pressures rather than the fluctuating pressures of the past.
Which does not explain the correlations seen with tree rings and lake varves.
Sorry, mindspawn, but your concepts of possible causes for errors in age measurements just do not explain the actual objective facts. It is the empirical data and the correlations that prove them to be wrong. This is why the correlations are the issue that you need to explain, not the methods.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 248 of 1498 (688394)
01-22-2013 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 6:04 AM


evolution not topic of this thread **OFF TOPIC ALERT**
I don't remember when we have discussed this topic that you can automatically assume my lack of knowledge compared to yours. On what facts do you base this assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm just interested.
I based it on the statement that you made.
But this is not a topic for discussion on this thread: please start a new thread to discuss this.
I am also asking all other participants not to reply further to this issue on this thread.
Thank you.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 249 of 1498 (688396)
01-22-2013 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by NoNukes
01-22-2013 9:01 AM


let's stay on topic
Hi NoNukes and Dr Adequate (and others reading this)
Please stick to the age dating methodology and correlations and not take a side trip to other issues.
Thanks.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 250 of 1498 (688398)
01-22-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 8:14 AM


Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
I'm just responding to comments posted, I never intitiated off-topic discussions, only responded.
And I would prefer that you don't respond so that this thread can stay focused on the issues of correlations.
I will be marking ALL off-topic posts with jeers to emphasize this point.
Please start another topic if you want to pursue this issue.
Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.
Edited by RAZD, : splg

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:14 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 251 of 1498 (688405)
01-22-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 7:45 AM


diatoms in Lake Suigetsu not tidal, photosythesis not isotope biased
... Let's stick to facts. If both forms of dating are out by a factor of 12 , they would remain in accord. It is a common observed phenomenon that diatom shells are washed up with spring tides, they normally form 12 layers a year, not one. ...
Yet, curiously, this is a lake, not a seashore, and the varves have nothing to do with spring tides or regular tides, but with the annual growth and death cycle of diatoms in the lake.
... Let's stick to facts. If both forms of dating are out by a factor of 12 , they would remain in accord. ...
AND you would need to show that both are indeed out by a factor of 12 rather than assume that one is (from misinterpretation) and that therefore the other is ...
That doesn't explain the correlation.
http://www.madsci.org/...chives/2004-02/1075764676.Bt.r.html
Plants will increase photosynthesis under increased pressures, absorbing more carbon 14 in the process, and absorb less under low pressures. Thus it is based on assumed consistency of air pressures. Carbon 14 dating is also based on assumed consistency in atmospheric carbon production.
Your link says nothing about 14C. Photosynthesis will cause absorption of both 14C and 12C in the ratio present in the atmosphere.
Changing the rate of photosynthesis does not change the ratio of 14C/12C. Trees go through an annual variation in the amount of photosynthesis between winter and summer, and this is WHY there are annual tree rings, but that does not change the 14C/12C ratio in each ring.
There is no bias -- and no mechanism to cause bias -- in selecting one isotope of carbon more than another.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 252 of 1498 (688409)
01-22-2013 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 8:20 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
The example given was specifically about varves formed by annual layers of diatom shells, if you have been following the discussion
Yup. And those varves are formed in still freshwater lakes that are not tidal, so your claim about them being formed by tides in the ocean is just plain silly.
It was this particular example which correlated with carbon dating.
No, it was this particular example which correlated with carbon dating which correlates with U-Th dating and which correlates with lots of other dating methods, listed in RAZD's thread. All of those many independent dating methods must be wrong by the same amount to produce the results we see and for the Earth to be young.
There's a whole web of many different methods which correlate, and obviously you know nothing about any of them.

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(3)
Message 253 of 1498 (688414)
01-22-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Dr Adequate
01-22-2013 6:30 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
It only makes sense that a flood would have wiped out all vegetation, dropping atmospheric strength, thereby artificially increasing the proportion of carbon in the atmosphere for the first centuries after the flood.
That does not make sense. Indeed, it appears to have been written by drawing words at random out of a hat.
Not quite, it's a confused version of a common creationist "theory". The general idea (there are many variants) is that there was little to no 14C in the atmosphere before the fludde; it was all locked in the vast amount of vegetation necessary to explain the amount of coal and whatnot we see today. After the fludde the 14C was released into the atmosphere and is slowly building towards equilibrium, which it will reach about 30,000 years from now.
So the decreased amount of 14C we see in samples is not solely due to the decay of 14C, it's partially due to that and partially due to there being little 14C in the atmosphere when the sample lived.
Of course, there are many many things obviously wrong with this "theory". My favorite is that it predicts the grain that was used to make bread in Pompeii must have been grown many many years after Vesuvius covered Pompeii.
The major proponent of this idiocy is R. H. Brown: THE INTERPRETATION OF C-14 DATES. A good discussion of his ideas is at Radiocarbon Dating and American Evangelical Christians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-22-2013 6:30 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2659 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 254 of 1498 (688436)
01-22-2013 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by RAZD
01-22-2013 10:39 AM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
And I would prefer that you don't respond so that this thread can stay focussed on the issues of correlations.
I will be marking ALL off-topic posts with jeers to emphasize this point.
Please start another topic if you want to pursue this issue.
Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.
I would love to continue this discussion with you, I see you have already made some good points and I really enjoy a good debate. Unfortunately I have too much self esteem to put myself through the rudeness of your peers on this site. This site should be better moderated to encourage good discussion.
ps lake Suigetsu is brackish, connected to a salt water lake. Tides affect its salinity, due obtaining its salinity through the adjacent tide effected Lake Kugushi, and salinity has a direct bearing on the population of diatoms (it kills them). Logically there would be a spring tide/diacom population relationship through the brackishness of the lake coming from the high tides of the salt water Lake Kugushi.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 10:39 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 256 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 3:44 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 257 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 3:53 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 255 of 1498 (688445)
01-22-2013 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 2:28 PM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
Unfortunately I have too much self esteem to put myself through the rudeness of your peers on this site.
Preparing to run from the facts, I see.
lake Suigetsu is brackish, connected to a salt water lake. Tides affect its salinity, due obtaining its salinity through the adjacent tide effected Lake Kugushi, and salinity has a direct bearing on the population of diatoms (it kills them).
True now. Wasn't when the varves were deposited. Scientists can tell.

This message is a reply to:
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