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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1396 of 5179 (688461)
01-22-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1393 by Taq
01-22-2013 4:43 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
Interpreting the Constitution is a power given the the Supreme Court by the Constitution. Do you disagree with the Constitution?
Am I not allowed to disagree with some of their interpretations of the Constitution without having to object to the Constitution's provision here? Some of their decisions have been screamingly contrary to the original intent of the Constitution. This is already an undermining of the nation when our laws are perverted like this.
However, it seems to me I recall that Thomas Jefferson had a problem with the powers given to the Supreme Court as too easily abused.
What I gather is considered to be unconstitutional about Obama's executive orders is that they ARE executive orders which infringe upon a Constitutionally given right of the people. In this case I leave the determination of the situation to the state agencies, governors, sheriffs and so on who oppose what he did. But I'm sure there are others here who know more about it than I do. People on my side of the issues I mean.
If we threw out every law that criminals break then we wouldn't have any laws left.
In this case that statement is just silly sophistry because this sort of law FAVORS the criminal and restricts the noncriminal. Not quite what you'd think a law should do.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1393 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 4:43 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1397 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 5:06 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1420 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-23-2013 5:01 PM Faith has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9971
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(6)
Message 1397 of 5179 (688462)
01-22-2013 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1396 by Faith
01-22-2013 4:58 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
Some of their decisions have been screamingly contrary to the original intent of the Constitution. This is already an undermining of the nation when our laws are perverted like this.
How cna this be an undermining of the law when it is the law?
What it comes down to is that you don't like the laws, even when they are constitutional and have passed constitutional review as required by that very constitution.
However, it seems to me I recall that Thomas Jefferson had a problem with the powers given to the Supreme Court as too easily abused.
So Jefferson thought that we should throw out God's laws too?
What I gather is considered to be unconstitutional about Obama's executive orders is that they ARE executive orders which infringe upon a Constitutionally given right of the people.
What is unconstitutional about the President running the Executive branch? That's his job, afterall. Every president since George Washington has given executive orders. Also,
"Although there is no constitutional provision or statute that explicitly permits executive orders, there is a vague grant of "executive power" given in Article II, Section 1, Clause 1 of the Constitution, and furthered by the declaration "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" made in Article II, Section 3, Clause 5. "
Executive order - Wikipedia
People on your side of the issue are just flat out wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1396 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 4:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1398 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:05 PM Taq has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1398 of 5179 (688467)
01-22-2013 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1397 by Taq
01-22-2013 5:06 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
You seem to be confused, Taq. It's very possible for a nation to have laws that OPPOSE God's laws, and we have a lot of them these days, and that's very bad for the nation.
It's also possible to have laws that are contrary to the Constitution even while claiming to be constitutional, and we do have those too.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1397 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 5:06 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1402 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 7:16 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1415 by xongsmith, posted 01-23-2013 11:27 AM Faith has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(7)
Message 1399 of 5179 (688468)
01-22-2013 6:13 PM


Here is a quote from the old version of Matthew 5.
quote:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Somewhere along the line I guess I missed the re-write. Apparently it now says don’t resist an evil person but simply put a slug between his eyes, and then pray for him.
Edited by GDR, : typo

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

Replies to this message:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:27 PM GDR has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1400 of 5179 (688469)
01-22-2013 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1395 by Straggler
01-22-2013 4:56 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
I dunno, Straggler, you just continue to mix up what I said about having armed protection at schools with what I said about God's judgments and sorting it out is beyond me right now. Also a bunch of stuff you impute to me about global this and tyrannical that which since you don't quote me is just too hard to figure out. If I tried I'd just be guessing.
Protecting schools is one subject, God's judgments are another. There's not a lot we can do against God's judgments except by His mercy -- the only real solution THERE is getting on our knees, repenting of our sins, asking for His forgiveness and committing ourselves to live by His laws. And doing all this AS a nation as well as as individuals.
Has it ever occurred to you that God might prefer us to construct societies in which it is deemed neither necessary nor desirable for kindergarten teachers to undergo 'shoot to kill' training?
You can't just make up what God wants and there is no need to because He's told us clearly in His word what He wants and how He operates, and what He wants is that we construct our nations according to His laws and especially His gospel of salvation in Christ. This is a fallen world and nothing we do is going to prevent all forms of evil but if a nation determines to obey God He'll take care of the evils for us. And that includes being sure we have an intact second amendment for protection.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1395 by Straggler, posted 01-22-2013 4:56 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1419 by Straggler, posted 01-23-2013 4:28 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1886 by Jaderis, posted 02-26-2013 4:03 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1401 of 5179 (688470)
01-22-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1399 by GDR
01-22-2013 6:13 PM


You can't turn the other cheek on behalf of children who are threatened by homicidal maniacs and that is not what the Lord's teaching means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1399 by GDR, posted 01-22-2013 6:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1404 by GDR, posted 01-22-2013 9:01 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1416 by xongsmith, posted 01-23-2013 12:20 PM Faith has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9971
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 1402 of 5179 (688472)
01-22-2013 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1398 by Faith
01-22-2013 6:05 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
You seem to be confused, Taq. It's very possible for a nation to have laws that OPPOSE God's laws, and we have a lot of them these days, and that's very bad for the nation.
Then let God come down and tell us which laws he wants changed. Until then, all we have is your complaining.
It's also possible to have laws that are contrary to the Constitution even while claiming to be constitutional, and we do have those too.
Not after the Supreme Court has ruled. Once they have determined that a law is constitutional then it is constitutional. The Supreme Court has ruled that limiting access to guns is constitutional, therefore it is. That is how our government works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1398 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1403 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 8:30 PM Taq has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1403 of 5179 (688490)
01-22-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1402 by Taq
01-22-2013 7:16 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
You seem to be confused, Taq. It's very possible for a nation to have laws that OPPOSE God's laws, and we have a lot of them these days, and that's very bad for the nation.
Then let God come down and tell us which laws he wants changed. Until then, all we have is your complaining.
As I already very clearly said, we KNOW what laws are in accord with God's will by knowing what His word says and if we don't we can read it and find out. It's all there. Abortion is against His laws and calling it a "right" is a perverted justification of murder. And any "right" to obscene speech or pornography is a violation of His laws. In the early history of the nation, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Law through an American version by someone Tucker laid out the basic laws as to be derived from God's law as found in the Bible. THAT was the original idea about American law. It was to reflect God's law. Now we have laws that outright contradict His laws. Even laws against the death penalty are against His laws because He clearly said to Noah that whoever kills man shall by man be killed. There seems to be no end these days to clever overturnings of the Law of God and yet people seem to think God should just be nice about it all. No, He brings judgment against a nation for such things. And we're way overdue it seems to me.
It's also possible to have laws that are contrary to the Constitution even while claiming to be constitutional, and we do have those too.
Not after the Supreme Court has ruled.
Right. The Constitution can say blue is blue but if the Supreme Court says blue is really red then it's red. Yes, I understand that's how the sophistry goes. But it IS sophistry. The Supreme Court can and has violated the Constitution in the name of the Constitution. Kind of like the Red Queen's thinking in Alice in Wonderland. It's whatever she says the law is, doesn't matter what is written.
Once they have determined that a law is constitutional then it is constitutional. The Supreme Court has ruled that limiting access to guns is constitutional, therefore it is. That is how our government works.
Yep. Wonderland.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1402 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 7:16 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1417 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 1:50 PM Faith has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(7)
Message 1404 of 5179 (688492)
01-22-2013 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1401 by Faith
01-22-2013 6:27 PM


I don't imagine He meant this either which is again from Matthew.
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
I imagine that somewhere there are statistics about this, but I would be willing to bet that there are more children die because people have guns in their home that there are from people breaking into their homes. I haven't read this whole thread but I assume that someone has pointed out the tragedy that happened in Connecticut was possible because the killer's mother had guns in the house.
We all want to keep our children safe which of course goes without saying. It is my contention, that my kids when I was raising them were safer because I didn't have guns in the house.
I'll go to the CNN web site right now and run down the stories that involve the use of guns in the US.
3 wounded, 2 detained in Texas college shooting | CNN
Police: Las Vegas officer kills wife, son and then himself in burning home | CNN
Albuquerque teen accused of killing 5 wanted a massacre, sheriff says | CNN
I just did this at a random time and there were three incidents involving guns on that one news site.The more guns are accessible the more these types of incidents happen. There were no stories of how some one saved themselves or their kids because they had guns in the house. I can't remember the last time I read of lives being saved because some one had armed themselves against attackers.
The message that Jesus espouses in the Bible is that we are to put out trust in Him. He died so that we don't have to walk around in fear. Just read the "Sermon on the Mount" and tell me that Jesus would advocate the idea of a gun in every home or the idea of armed guards in schools.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1405 by vimesey, posted 01-22-2013 9:13 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1407 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 12:31 AM GDR has replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 1405 of 5179 (688493)
01-22-2013 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1404 by GDR
01-22-2013 9:01 PM


Hi GDR - there's some data here from 1999, relating to children's accidental deaths from guns Gun Safety and Children | CS Mott Children's Hospital | Michigan Medicine

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1404 by GDR, posted 01-22-2013 9:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1406 by GDR, posted 01-22-2013 11:23 PM vimesey has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1406 of 5179 (688497)
01-22-2013 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1405 by vimesey
01-22-2013 9:13 PM


vimesey writes:
Hi GDR - there's some data here from 1999, relating to children's accidental deaths from guns Gun Safety and Children | CS Mott Children's Hospital | Michigan Medicine
Thanks Vimesey. I think that data makes my point. Kids are far safer in a home without guns in it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1405 by vimesey, posted 01-22-2013 9:13 PM vimesey has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1407 of 5179 (688500)
01-23-2013 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1404 by GDR
01-22-2013 9:01 PM


Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Hello GDR,
I went through all this with myself years ago and for a while tended toward pacifism, but came to the conclusion that the point of being armed is really more for protection of others including your own family than it is literally for SELF-defense. And after I'd read up on the history that led up to the second amendment (which I posted on this thread more than once, I think #57 was the first) I concluded that it's a necessity in a fallen world. Yes, Christians trust Christ to protect us but we can't just stand by and do nothing while others are hurt or killed. And besides, how many Americans (or Canadians) are serious Christians? Should they all be required to trust God?
The Principal at Sandy Hook died while flinging herself at the shooter to try to stop him. Seems sad that she wasn't armed, she'd have been more effective, could possibly have saved many children. Of course guns were not allowed there.
Also seems to me that just one or two armed people sitting in the theater in Aurora Colorado could have stopped that massacre, but that was a gun-free zone where the shooter could just kill and kill.
Of course in both these instances if they weren't gun-free zones there probably wouldn't have been any shooter at all.
You say you found no stories of guns saving anybody but there are such stories out there. Earlier in this thread I posted the video of the man with a concealed carry handgun who stopped a burglary by two men, one with a gun and one with a baseball bat, which you can see HERE.
There's also Suzanna Hupp's testimony about how her parents would probably not have died in a shooting if she hadn't left her gun in her purse. It's not a success story but I think she makes her case.
And I found these pages on my own search just now, looking for some incidents I’d recently heard about, of guns being used effectively for self defense:
The first is Snopes reporting a story to be false that I'd heard, about an eleven year old girl who was said to have killed two intruders with a shotgun, but they did dig up three TRUE stories of children using a gun against an intruder: scroll down the page:
Did an 11-Year-Old Girl Shoot and Kill 'Illegal Aliens' Burglarizing Her Home? | Snopes.com
Another account I’d heard recently was about a mother with a gun hiding from an intruder in a crawlspace with her children and
this story appears to be true.
One account of this story.
All of the sudden, the crawlspace door opens where she and her two children are and she is face-to-face with this perpetrator, who is in turn staring at her and her two kids and a .38 revolver, said Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman.
Here’s a whole page of alleged self-defense shootings. I’m not going to make any claims for the stories since I didn’t check them out but if even a quarter of them are true you can’t say guns aren’t used for self defense. And if these stories are true there are most likely many other cases that could be discovered with some searching.
And I have to include this long film, , In the Name of God I recently saw about the genocide in Rwanda back in the early 90s. It was a clear case of propaganda-drive genocide mostly engineered by the Catholic Church and I can't help thinking that it might not have happened if the Tutsis had had access to guns. Of course they probably would have been disarmed first, but the point is they were absolutely defenseless and it makes the case FOR means of self defense all by itself in my opinion.
Of course you're going to have accidents if guns aren't handled properly or even when they are. But we're talking over 50 million households in America with guns while the accidental deaths are proportionally extremely small. And there must be millions of parents with guns in their houses whose sons don't steal them for killing people. Depriving the millions of a Constitutionally given right because of these rare occurrences is out of proportion. The fewer deaths the better of course, and I think anyone who can be shown to have been negligent about their guns should be prosecuted.
During your lifetime and mine we haven't really seen much reason to have guns, but there's always the possibility that we WILL need them as soon as we give them up. I simply do not trust anyone who wants us to give up our only personal means of self defense.
Jesus didn't advocate violence but he did suggest that his disciples allow themselves a couple of swords among them, showing that he didn't completely reject the need to be armed to some extent.
AbE: Looked up the passage and I see I'd forgotten it's more direct than that, he actually tells them to get a sword:
Luk 22:35-38 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Edited by Faith, : to add last paragraph

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1404 by GDR, posted 01-22-2013 9:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1418 by GDR, posted 01-23-2013 2:43 PM Faith has replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 1408 of 5179 (688501)
01-23-2013 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1385 by Faith
01-22-2013 3:28 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
You've been fed a heavy dose of propaganda. Where do you think you are getting your opinions? Where is all that gun-phobia coming from anyway? You might try to trace the source. It's THAT attitude that's totally insane. And you don't even suspect it's just propaganda do you?
Hold on, the fact that a gun-related tragedy can be countered with something else than with more guns is insane?
I honestly believe that you do not come even close to understanding the point Straggler (and partially myself) have been advocating. A school yard with zero guns is what children SHOULD be living with and that is what the school yards in absolute majority of Europe are like.
I dont have a gun-phobia, I just cannot see anything good in handguns and assault weapons in civilian hands. I am a lieutenant in my countrys army so it is not as I was a green-hippie-pacifist or whatnot insultive you can come up with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1385 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 3:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1410 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 3:20 AM saab93f has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 1409 of 5179 (688502)
01-23-2013 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1376 by Faith
01-22-2013 12:54 PM


Re: God's judgments on America, gun control a sign
So you don't entertain that the constitution maybe, just maybe out of date and incorrect on this issue? on any issues?
Do you see the constitution as infallible? unchanging? inerrant truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 12:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1411 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 3:26 AM Heathen has replied
 Message 1424 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 12:06 AM Heathen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1410 of 5179 (688504)
01-23-2013 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1408 by saab93f
01-23-2013 1:27 AM


Re: The Un-American Mind
You've been fed a heavy dose of propaganda. Where do you think you are getting your opinions? Where is all that gun-phobia coming from anyway? You might try to trace the source. It's THAT attitude that's totally insane. And you don't even suspect it's just propaganda do you?
Hold on, the fact that a gun-related tragedy can be countered with something else than with more guns is insane?
What I said is insane is the denigrating opinion you have about those who favor guns which can only be propaganda you got from somewhere and I wonder where. There's a very heavy agenda coming from somewhere designed to cast second amendment supporters as something on the level of vermin. Propaganda of this sort has been the tool used against many people to get them disarmed and hated and set them up for something, genocide, inability to defend against a foreign invasion, whatever.
But as for the idea that "a gun-related tragedy can be countered with something else" I regard that as self-deception. You can't "counter" such an event by refusing to get upset by it or get carried away with ideas of self-defense, you are merely making yourself feel better, calming your emotions. If no more tragedies occur, fine, but there is no cause and effect relation between your attitude and that fact.
But just out of curiosity, do you think Norway is any better prepared to handle it if another such incident DID occur? Why or why not, and what preparations have they made?
I honestly believe that you do not come even close to understanding the point Straggler (and partially myself) have been advocating. A school yard with zero guns is what children SHOULD be living with and that is what the school yards in absolute majority of Europe are like.
And in America as well of course. As I mentioned to GDR in my last post we haven't had any reason to think we need guns in our lifetime, we're used to living in a peaceful society. We haven't had any reason to think of defending our schools until recently. A series of vicious homicides suggests that we may now have a reason. Giving up our guns and pretending there is no problem is NOT a way to "counter" such a situation. And again, the propaganda campaign against the most reasonable way to deal with the situation is so nasty it's clear somebody wants America disarmed.
I dont have a gun-phobia, I just cannot see anything good in handguns and assault weapons in civilian hands.
That's a form of gun-phobia. The history behind the second amendment that influenced the American founders who wrote the amendment, that I posted back in message 57, argues very effectively and rationally in favor of civilian ownership of guns. On the other hand you are arguing from personal feelings and a lack of knowledge -- that YOU "can't see anything good" in it. It's not informed by knowledge, it's feeling-driven, which is what it is for most on this thread.
I am a lieutenant in my countrys army so it is not as I was a green-hippie-pacifist or whatnot insultive you can come up with.
I wouldn't suggest such a thing. I do think you've been influenced by this propaganda machine against guns in America though, as so many here have been, this agenda to disarm whole nations by some pretty belittling insulting propaganda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1408 by saab93f, posted 01-23-2013 1:27 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1412 by saab93f, posted 01-23-2013 3:54 AM Faith has replied

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