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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 256 of 1498 (688446)
01-22-2013 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 2:28 PM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
I would love to continue this discussion with you, I see you have already made some good points and I really enjoy a good debate. Unfortunately I have too much self esteem to put myself through the rudeness of your peers on this site. This site should be better moderated to encourage good discussion.
One alternative is a Great Debate thread -- two people debate a topic, other people participate through messaging or a peanut gallery thread.
See The Great Debate forum for some existing debates.
If you want I can set it up.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 2:28 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by mindspawn, posted 01-23-2013 3:19 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 257 of 1498 (688449)
01-22-2013 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 2:28 PM


brackish vs fresh influx
... lake Suigetsu is brackish, connected to a salt water lake. Tides affect its salinity, due obtaining its salinity through the adjacent tide effected Lake Kugushi, and salinity has a direct bearing on the population of diatoms (it kills them). Logically there would be a spring tide/diacom population relationship through the brackishness of the lake coming from the high tides of the salt water Lake Kugushi.
Lake Suigetsu - Wikipedia
quote:
Lake Suigetsu is a lake in Honshu Island, Japan located near the towns of Mikata and close to the coast of Sea of Japan. Since 1993, it has been attracting the attention of scientists because of the undisturbed nature of the water for many thousands of years. It is possible to identify the annual deposits of silt in a similar manner that tree rings are identified.
The only inflow to Lake Suigestu is through a shallow channel from the neighbouring Lake Mikata and there is little outflow. Consequently only the finest sediment comes into the lake.[7] The water is anoxic (deoxygenated) preventing the growth of organisms and due to seasonal variations it is usually but not always possible to distinguish the annual deposits visually. It has taken almost twenty years to overcome the consequent problems, using multiple cores and new detection techniques to complete the sequence.
Oops -- no brackish sea water flushing.
quote:
The results of research on varves in Lake Suigetsu, Japan announced in 2012 realised this aim. "In most cases the radiocarbon levels deduced from marine and other records have not been too far wrong. However, having a truly terrestrial record gives us better resolution and confidence in radiocarbon dating," said Bronk Ramsey. "It also allows us to look at the differences between the atmosphere and oceans and study the implications for our understanding of the marine environment as part of the global carbon cycle."[4] Results were published in 2012 in the journal Science increasing the calibration from 12,593 to 52,800 years. [5][6]
Looks like I may need to update this section when the next version is made.
A Complete Terrestrial Radiocarbon Record for 11.2 to 52.8 kyr B.P.
Christopher Bronk Ramsey1,*, Richard A. Staff1, Charlotte L. Bryant2, Fiona Brock1, Hiroyuki Kitagawa3, Johannes van der Plicht4,5, Gordon Schlolaut6, Michael H. Marshall7, Achim Brauer6, Henry F. Lamb7, Rebecca L. Payne8, Pavel E. Tarasov9, Tsuyoshi Haraguchi10, Katsuya Gotanda11, Hitoshi Yonenobu12, Yusuke Yokoyama13, Ryuji Tada13, Takeshi Nakagawa8
Science 19 October 2012: Vol. 338 no. 6105 pp. 370-374DOI:10.1126/science.1226660
(should be available at your local library)
A New Radiocarbon Yardstick from Japan
Oct 18, 2012 by Andrew Alden from QUEST Northern California
http://www.suigetsu.org/embed.php?File=location.html
quote:
Suigetsu forms part of a five lake system, the 'Mikata-goko' ('Mikata Five Lakes'), with Suigetsu representing the largest of these lakes. The only significant water supply into Suigetsu comes via the neighbouring Lake Mikata from the Hasu River. Since Mikata and Suigetsu are connected by a very shallow (approximately 4 m deep) and narrow (approximately 45 m wide) channel, only fine sediment can be carried across into Suigetsu, with any larger material preferentially deposited in Lake Mikata. This hydrological linkage of the two lakes protects Suigetsu from any high energy hydrological events (such as floods), which therefore cannot disturb the basal sediments deposited at the bottom of Lake Suigetsu. Additionally, Suigetsu is naturally protected from winds by the surrounding ring of Palaeozoic hills (with a maximum elevation of approximately 400 m), providing further protection to the deposited benthic sediment.
The marked seasonality at Lake Suigetsu generates differential deposition of material through the seasons, which results in the layers within the sediment profile that contribute to the Suigetsu varves. The hydrology of the lake is such that anoxic (deoxygenated) benthic water conditions exist, preventing bioturbation by basal-dwelling organisms. In combination with the physical protection afforded to the lake, these anoxic conditions enable the laminations initially formed to be perfectly preserved in the sedimentary record.
Seems to be a pretty isolated system.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : added refs and links
Edited by RAZD, : added third link\reference and quote

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 2:28 PM mindspawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by JonF, posted 01-23-2013 12:42 PM RAZD has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


(2)
Message 258 of 1498 (688503)
01-23-2013 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by RAZD
01-22-2013 3:44 PM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
Good idea, let's do it..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 3:44 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2013 11:01 AM mindspawn has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 259 of 1498 (688523)
01-23-2013 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by mindspawn
01-23-2013 3:19 AM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
Done. Watch Evolution Theory Issue - Great Debate - mindspawn and RAZD onlymindspawn and RAZD only[/color] for promotion.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by mindspawn, posted 01-23-2013 3:19 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Panda, posted 01-23-2013 11:13 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 265 by mindspawn, posted 01-24-2013 2:52 AM RAZD has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 260 of 1498 (688525)
01-23-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by RAZD
01-23-2013 11:01 AM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
RAZD writes:
Done. Watch Evolution Great Debate - midspawn and RAZD only for promotion.
Initially, I assumed that Mindspawn wanted a 1-on-1 debate about age correlations.
But re-reading, it now seems ambiguous to me.
It might be worth confirming which subject MS would like to discuss?
(...or maybe I have just got the completely wrong end of the stick.)

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2013 11:01 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(3)
Message 261 of 1498 (688533)
01-23-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by RAZD
01-22-2013 3:53 PM


Re: brackish vs fresh influx
As to the connections between lakes, Wikipedia appears to be a little wrong.
Mikata-goko lakes]:
quote:
These lakes are near Wakasa Bay, and all lakes are connected with a narrow channel or a canal.
The lakes are the followings.
Lake Mikata : (Width) 3.56 sq km, (Depth) 5.8 m,
Fresh water
Lake Suigetsu : (W) 4.16 sq km, (D) 34.0 m,
Brackish water
Lake Suga : (W) 0.91 sq km, (D) 13.0 m,
Brackish water
Lake Kugushi : (W) 1.40 sq km, (D) 2.5 m,
Brackish water
Lake Hiruga : (W) 0.92 sq km, (D) 38.5 m,
Ocean water
Lake Kugushi and Lake Hiruga are connected with Wakasa Bay.
Urami Canal connecting Lake Suigetsu and Lake Kugushi was constructed in 1664 by artificial means.
And Lake Suigetsu and Lake Hiruga were connected with an underground waterway constructed in 1934, but it is always closed to avoid the water quality change.
All lakes have different concentrations of salt. Of course, the nearer the sea, the higher the concentration.
But deep Lake Suigetsu is unique. The layer from the surface to about 6 meters deep has freshwater, but the deeper layer has oxygen-free brackish containing hydrogen sulfide.
The varves aren't forming any longer. IIRC since the canal was dug in 1664. But the varves contain many records of volcanic eruptions. Now those are being correlated with nearby volcanoes, and those volcanoes are being dated by Ar-Ar. Toward establishing precise 40Ar/39Ar chronologies for Late Pleistocene palaeoclimate archives: an example from the Lake Suigetsu (Japan) sedimentary record. Yet another consilience for YECs to fail to explain!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 3:53 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2013 9:24 PM JonF has replied
 Message 263 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2013 9:28 PM JonF has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 262 of 1498 (688608)
01-23-2013 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by JonF
01-23-2013 12:42 PM


Re: brackish vs fresh influx
Thanks for the extra information JonF
As to the connections between lakes, Wikipedia appears to be a little wrong.
I'm not seeing much difference -- the inflow to Lake Suigetsu is fresh water from Lake Mikata, which is a freshwater lake, as wiki says:
quote:
... The only inflow to Lake Suigestu is through a shallow channel from the neighbouring Lake Mikata and there is little outflow. ...
Your link says:
quote:
... Urami Canal connecting Lake Suigetsu and Lake Kugushi was constructed in 1664 by artificial means. ...
So presumably there was no significant connection prior to that canal, and that is well after the start of the floating chronology.
That would still mean "no brackish sea water flushing" (Message 257) yes?
quote:
But deep Lake Suigetsu is unique. The layer from the surface to about 6 meters deep has freshwater, but the deeper layer has oxygen-free brackish containing hydrogen sulfide.
This would mean that the clay\silt runoff would be spread evenly over the top layer of the lake in the fresh water and then settle down.
Seems to me that the deep salty water would be from ground water (aquifer) being salty due to proximity of ocean
Interesting.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by JonF, posted 01-23-2013 12:42 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by JonF, posted 01-24-2013 7:40 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 263 of 1498 (688609)
01-23-2013 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by JonF
01-23-2013 12:42 PM


volcanic ash layers
... But the varves contain many records of volcanic eruptions. Now those are being correlated with nearby volcanoes, and those volcanoes are being dated by Ar-Ar. Toward establishing precise 40Ar/39Ar chronologies for Late Pleistocene palaeoclimate archives: an example from the Lake Suigetsu (Japan) sedimentary record. Yet another consilience for YECs to fail to explain!
Indeed. These ash layers are mentioned in Message 21 where we have this graph:
quote:

And there is information from other sources dating some of those layers.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 264 of 1498 (688642)
01-24-2013 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Panda
01-23-2013 11:13 AM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
Yes it was my mistake, thanks for picking up the ambiguity Panda. I was busy replying to RAZD's post 250 concerning the evolution debate, when I realised I cannot continue in THIS thread about radioactive dating. Hence the ambiguity, but anyway, both discussions are of interest to me, we can continue discussing novel genes there, and at a later date tackle radioactive dating again in another one on one debate if we both still keen then.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 265 of 1498 (688645)
01-24-2013 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by RAZD
01-23-2013 11:01 AM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
Hi RAZD, I don't have reply privileges in that forum. I actually wanted to discuss dating, but am happy to discuss evolution.
I am only interested in discussing novel genes, your topic seems to be discussing whether the precise wording of my sentence reveals a misunderstanding of evolution? Hey it probably does on a semantic grammar level, you can win that debate ;-)
In the meantime I wonder if nature can duplicate a gene naturally, a coding gene that then introduces a new function that adds fitness to the organism? I didn't mean to infer that I have been doing in depth studies for a year, but in a few passing discussions with evolutionists over the last year I have not yet seen evidence of this particular process. If you could show evidence for this , even a private message, I would appreciate it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2013 11:01 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by RAZD, posted 01-24-2013 11:01 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 266 of 1498 (688648)
01-24-2013 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by RAZD
01-23-2013 9:24 PM


Re: brackish vs fresh influx
the inflow to Lake Suigetsu is fresh water from Lake Mikata
And Lake Kugushi.
So presumably there was no significant connection prior to that canal, and that is well after the start of the floating chronology.
Oh, yes, definitely. But it seems that the canal stopped varve formation and destroyed some of the upper varves.
Seems to me that the deep salty water would be from ground water (aquifer) being salty due to proximity of ocean
Or the salty water from Lake Kugushi enters a placid lake and settles rather than mixing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2013 9:24 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 267 of 1498 (688663)
01-24-2013 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by mindspawn
01-24-2013 2:52 AM


Re: Go to Proposed New Topics to start a topic
Hi RAZD, I don't have reply privileges in that forum. I actually wanted to discuss dating, but am happy to discuss evolution.
I am only interested in discussing novel genes, your topic seems to be discussing whether the precise wording of my sentence reveals a misunderstanding of evolution? Hey it probably does on a semantic grammar level, you can win that debate ;-)
In the meantime I wonder if nature can duplicate a gene naturally, a coding gene that then introduces a new function that adds fitness to the organism? I didn't mean to infer that I have been doing in depth studies for a year, but in a few passing discussions with evolutionists over the last year I have not yet seen evidence of this particular process. If you could show evidence for this , even a private message, I would appreciate it.
okay -- lets tackle the novel gene issue first and then we can have another go at the dating issues, either here or in a great debate.
See you at Evolution Theory Issue - Great Debate -mindspawn and RAZD onlymindspawn and RAZD only[/color]
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 268 of 1498 (689450)
01-30-2013 7:58 PM


More information - thanks Dr Adequate
An excellent overview and discussion of the concordance of dates from a variety of sources:
Message 254 on the Introduction To Geology thread
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 269 of 1498 (690027)
02-07-2013 7:31 PM


This just in -- new oldest tree found: 5062 years old (and still living)
Looks like I'll need to edit Message 2:
http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm
quote:
A new record holder was recently recognized, a Pinus longaeva growing in the White Mountains of eastern California. The date on this tree was reported to me by Tom Harlan. The tree was cored by Edmund Schulman in the late 1950s but he never had a chance to date it before he died. Tom worked up the core only recently, and knows which tree it is. The tree is still alive, and the age given below, 5062, is the tree's age as of the growing season of 2012.
Also
THE ANCIENT TREES - Spiritual Forum - Ashtar Command - Spiritual Community
quote:
Among the White Mountain specimens, the oldest trees are found on north-facing slopes, with an average of 2,000 years, as compared to the 1,000 year average on the southern slopes. The climate and the durability of their wood can preserve them long after death, with dead trees as old as 7,000 years persisting next to live ones.
A standing 7,000 year old dead tree standing near living trees (ie undisturbed by any flood waters ... ) and that can be tied to Methuselah, Prometheus and this new 5,062 year old tree by dendrochronology and cross-dating gives us a very strong chronology.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : 2 not 3

we are limited in our ability to understand
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to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 270 of 1498 (710116)
11-01-2013 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by RAZD
03-24-2009 9:51 PM


Re: Another Correlation for Lake Suigetsu Varves
in Message 128 of the Age of mankind, dating, and the flood thread JonF posts
quote:
Varves are no longer being produced in Suigetsu. In 1664 they built a canal connecting the freshwater (on top) lake Suigetsu to the brackish lake Hiruga (see Mikata-goko lakes) and that was the end of the show. IIRC there was also an earthquake which may have affected the varve formation.
So until recently the Suigetsu varve chronology was "floating"; it didn't contain within itself any known direct link to an independently dateable event. The chronology was anchored by connecting it to dendrochronology by way of 14C dating of both, and solidly anchored tree ring counts.
There's been some good progress in another independent anchor, Ar-Ar dating of tephras (from volcanic eruptions) found in the varves. It's a little tricky because they can't collect enough material from the varves to do the dating. But they can do geochemical analysis of the tephras in the varves and correlate that to tephra deposits found nearby which are extensive enough to do the Ar-Ar dating. There's only one result so far but it fits. See Tephra.
Adding another dating correlation to the mix.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
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